Ending Game

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Multiple. The first time I heard this was probably 12 years ago or so - I only remember that time because it got an "Oh really?" from me. I know I've heard this numerous times since then.

Based on your comment though, you are telling me this is wrong. If so, what rule? Clinics aside, I can find no rules basis for disallowing a run in this case.

So, what do you do when R3 goes directly to the dugout and F4 is standing on 2B with the ball appealing the missed base?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So, what do you do when R3 goes directly to the dugout and F4 is standing on 2B with the ball appealing the missed base?

How can it be a missed base - to miss a base, you have to pass it without hitting it. If you are calling this a missed base in THIS case, are you implying that you would not call the out for abandoning the basepaths if this happened in the middle of the game when R1's run didn't appear to end the game? No - BU would rule that runner out for ABANDONMENT (Yes, it's usually a crutch, but for once it's the proper ruling) when they entered the dugout. You can't call it abandonment in one case, but insist on an appeal for a missed base in another.

I ask again ... by what rule are you disallowing this run?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So, what do you do when R3 goes directly to the dugout and F4 is standing on 2B with the ball appealing the missed base?

It wasn't a missed base; it was failure to advance. So, call the runner out for failure to advance. Now, find the rule that removes the run from the board.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Note: This is speaking ASA based on comment about what ASA teaches.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

How can it be a missed base - to miss a base, you have to pass it without hitting it.

Citations please. But for the sake of argument, say the player was already heading that way and just ran passed on the way to the 3B dugout. Is there also a rule which dictates how close a runner must come to this base for it to be missed? Think about that statement. If a runner goes directly from 3B to 1B on a caught fly ball, are you not allowing the appeal at 2B because the runner did not physically pass the base?

If you are calling this a missed base in THIS case, are you implying that you would not call the out for abandoning the basepaths if this happened in the middle of the game when R1's run didn't appear to end the game? No - BU would rule that runner out for ABANDONMENT (Yes, it's usually a crutch, but for once it's the proper ruling) when they entered the dugout. You can't call it abandonment in one case, but insist on an appeal for a missed base in another.

I didn't state that I insisted on an appeal, did I?

My question was based on your statement that ASA teaches that only the BR and scoring runner is the concern. I've never heard such a thing. The importance of the scoring runner is obvious. But why wouldn't all other runners carry the same importance whether BR, R2 or R3?

I ask again ... by what rule are you disallowing this run?

Where did I state that I was?

Originally Posted by Dakota

It wasn't a missed base; it was failure to advance. So, call the runner out for failure to advance.

How do you know it wasn't a missed base? Cite the definition of a "missed base". And please cite the rule where it states a runner is out for failing to advance?

Now, find the rule that removes the run from the board

If necessary, I will

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How do you know it wasn't a missed base? Cite the definition of a "missed base". And please cite the rule where it states a runner is out for failing to advance?

So, playing word games, are we? Since this has morphed into an ASA discussion, I guess rule 8-7U is superfluous, and such infractions must be appealed?

Fine whatever. Honor the appeal, now...

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If necessary, I will

... go ahead.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, playing word games, are we?

You accuse me of word games, but I've yet to see a response to my questions?

Since this has morphed into an ASA discussion, I guess rule 8-7U is superfluous, and such infractions must be appealed?

I made no such statement and it is too late in the year for you to blame it on the cold weather.

[MD Longhorn]

Wow...

Three years ago when I was posting here all the time, you (and Atl Steve) were generally the guys who would give the definitive right answers when we really had a sticky one.

Now (and not just on this thread), it seems all you do is badger and dodge. If we're wrong on this situation, PLEASE tell us why. But this constant answering a question with a question and saying "I didn't say that" without clarifying where you were misunderstood is completely unhelpful. Most of us are here to learn, to share, and help each other (and badger the coaches and players of course ... and talk about beer!). I'm not sure what happened in the past 3 years, but the additions from you in the last 4 or 5 threads (well ... other than the beer one) have not helped any of us.

Sorry if I offended ... but I miss the helpful Mike.

[Dakota]

Yet, you've avoided answering the key question of this thread (as opposed to semantic questionis). Is the run voided? If so, by what rule?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dakota

yet, you've avoided answering the key question of this thread (as opposed to semantic questionis). Is the run voided? If so, by what rule?

+1

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

My question was based on your statement that ASA teaches that only the BR and scoring runner is the concern. I've never heard such a thing. The importance of the scoring runner is obvious. But why wouldn't all other runners carry the same importance whether BR, R2 or R3?

Too much semantics, doublespeak and answering a question with a question. But my answer to THIS question is because the rules SPECIFICALLY disallow a run if BR is called out for the 3rd out before reaching first base. They do not say this regarding R2 or R3.

A lot of us here consider that when you post something, that's it - it's the answer. So answer us here.

How, exactly, are you taking this run off the board? By what rule.

And if your answer is that you're claiming R3 "missed" 2nd base, are you saying you would not call this runner out without an appeal if she ran off the field during a situation that did not end the game?

[Dakota]

I would point out that the OP is an NFHS situation, and it has now come to also include ASA. NFHS does not require a runner who abandons her advance to actually enter DBT for the out; they require that the runner "abandons a base" OR "leaves the field of play". ASA uses AND instead of OR. NFHS has two case plays on abandoning a base. As I said earlier in this thread, in one case play the runner is out for "giving up" (quoting the ruling) and in the other the runner is out for "abandoning her effort to run the bases" (again, quoting the ruling).

But, as I also said, fine, rule her out on appeal. Where does the support come from to remove the run from the board? It was not the BR and it was not a force play. It was a base award.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

But, as I also said, fine, rule her out on appeal. Where does the support come from to remove the run from the board? It was not the BR and it was not a force play. It was a base award.

Not to take the other side, because I CLEARLY don't think this is a missed base appeal...

But a runner who is FORCED to leave first base due to the batter becoming a batter-runner is considered a forced base, even if it's an award. If someone makes a missed base appeal (a real one) on this runner on the base they are forced to go to, it WOULD nullify the run. Don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves, this is in the same sentence that says "or a batter-runner before she reaches first base" in nullifying a run.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not to take the other side, because I CLEARLY don't think this is a missed base appeal...

But a runner who is FORCED to leave first base due to the batter becoming a batter-runner is considered a forced base, even if it's an award. If someone makes a missed base appeal (a real one) on this runner on the base they are forced to go to, it WOULD nullify the run. Don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves, this is in the same sentence that says "or a batter-runner before she reaches first base" in nullifying a run.

Forced to advance, but there is no force out available at 2B. It is an awarded base, as NFHS Case Play 9.1.1-D makes clear, "RULING: The run scores; R1 was awarded home as soon as ball four was declared. (8-4-3a Effect; 9-1-1 Exception b)."