Ending Game

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I have had to tip toe around the p**ing contest but this is what I've found so someone tell me is this correct or is there something else I am missing.

Dakota’s post is not quite the question that was posted. In Dakota’s post the runner made 2B and was tagged while off base. On page 70 in the NFHS case book 9.9.1 M.

In the last of the 7th. Inning, two outs. Score tied, bases loaded. B6 walks to force R1 home. B6 assumes the game is over fails to go to 1B and leaves the field. The ball is held at 1B. Ruling: B6 is out and the run does not score. (Rule 8.6.7 Exception b)

So B6 is out, run is nullified after the appeal?

Yes - no run... but this is not the OP either. there is a separate specific rule telling us that a run can't score on a play where BR is put out before reaching first base for the third out... that is the rule that applies to your sitch.

The disagreement between Tom, Mike, and I is whether there is any rule that says that if R2 or R3 neglect to make it to the next base, the run is nullified. I don't believe there is - neither does Tom. Mike has alluded that there is, and is generally right - but he has not helped us find that rule.

I'm reading Rule 8.6.7 which in part says the batter-runner at 1B or any other runner forced because of the batter-runner. This is a force out.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I'm reading Rule 8.6.7 which in part says the batter-runner at 1B or any other runner forced because of the batter-runner. This is a force out.

Read the whole rule (or post it). There is no force on R2 or R3. Can you throw the ball to 2nd or 3rd before they get there to get them out? No.

Part of that rule DOES say an appeal for a missed base on R2 or R3, if that base was a forced base, can nullify a run. ASA is similar but not identical. But therein lies the crux of the disagreement.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I'm reading Rule 8.6.7 which in part says the batter-runner at 1B or any other runner forced because of the batter-runner. This is a force out.

The runner is forced to advance, but it is not a force out since it is an awarded base. There is not force out situation at 2B in the OP situation. I can't see any rule that takes a run off the board due to a missed base appeal on an awarded base, or for an out due to abandoning an awarded base, on other than the BR or the runner who actually scored.

You may be correct but I'm being devil's advocate. In the case book 1B is also an awarded base that was failed be touched. would 2nd or 3rd be treated any differentially?

[CecilOne]

Aren't you glad we don't hear appeals as a group?

Of course, then there would be specific rule, a little easier.

We could all get together and vote

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

You may be correct but I'm being devil's advocate. In the case book 1B is also an awarded base that was failed be touched. would 2nd or 3rd be treated any differentially?

That is the crux of the discussion. Speaking NFHS, show me where R1 in the OP situation being ruled out negates the run:

NFHS 9-1-1

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the batter-runner before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out;
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the bases;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.

I would say B and D

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

I would say B and D

It is not a force out; it is a base award. At best, the runner is out for missing a base on an awarded base, but it is not a force out.

Going back to the case book. 1B is an awarded base as well. BR is called out on appeal and no run scores. So why would 2nd and 3rd base be treated any differently?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

Going back to the case book. 1B is an awarded base as well. BR is called out on appeal and no run scores. So why would 2nd and 3rd base be treated any differently?

Because they are not specifically mentioned in the rules and BR is, even if base-on-balls was not the intent.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by softball_junky

You may be correct but I'm being devil's advocate. In the case book 1B is also an awarded base that was failed be touched. would 2nd or 3rd be treated any differentially?

Yes... the difference is this: "by the batter-runner before touching first base"

Well I will keep checking back until we can get a definitive answer. This happens a lot during Rec season. There are run limits per inning and often on walks not all the runners touch the next base. We treat it as an appeal. Most of the time the coaches don't even notice.

[PSUchem]

"It is not a force out; it is a base award. At best, the runner is out for missing a base on an awarded base, but it is not a force out."

But it is a base to which the runner is forced, regardless of whether it is an award. Isn't this a similar play:

Bases loaded, two outs, B4 hits a grand-slam over the fence. R3, who started on 1B, misses 2B. After everyone has crossed the plate, defensive fielder appeals that R3 missed 2B. How many runs score? None, because the runner missed the base to which they were "forced." All of the runners were "awarded" home on the ball hit out of play on the homerun.

So how is the OP any different? Are you saying that because I can't throw the ball to 2B to retire R3, and it is an awarded base, it is not possible to have a "force" on an appeal?