Pinch runner for a courtesy runner?

[Dakota]

1) The catcher cannot return to run once the CR has been entered, barring an injury to the CR or to another player with no other subs available.

2) The CR cannot have either a CR (by rule) or a sub (since the CR is not officially in the lineup).

3) The catcher can have a sub, but whether the starting catcher or her sub, neither can return to run for the CR (exceptions noted above).

I do not believe what the coach did was legal.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

1) The catcher cannot return to run once the CR has been entered, barring an injury to the CR or to another player with no other subs available.

2) The CR cannot have either a CR (by rule) or a sub (since the CR is not officially in the lineup).

3) The catcher can have a sub, but whether the starting catcher or her sub, neither can return to run for the CR (exceptions noted above).

I do not believe what the coach did was legal.

I see your points, and could probably be led to interpret the situation this way. But here are my questions:

Does a courtesy runner NOT qualify as a player? 3-3-2

The other issue I have, is that had the offensive coach substituted #8 for F2, all of this is irrelevant, since #8 is a player and the coach could substitute for #8, either by re-entry or another eligible sub. But, by declaring #8 a courtesy runner, #8 is locked to the basepath, even though by being able to substitute for a CR, the coach doesn't lose any options had he originally substituted in the first place.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I see your points, and could probably be led to interpret the situation this way. But here are my questions:

Does a courtesy runner NOT qualify as a player? 3-3-2

The other issue I have, is that had the offensive coach substituted #8 for F2, all of this is irrelevant, since #8 is a player and the coach could substitute for #8, either by re-entry or another eligible sub. But, by declaring #8 a courtesy runner, #8 is locked to the basepath, even though by being able to substitute for a CR, the coach doesn't lose any options had he originally substituted in the first place.

I agree the issue goes away if the runner had been a pinch runner instead of a CR.

A CR is a player wrt the general rules regarding players (proper uniform, etc.), but she is not in the lineup. By definition, becoming a CR does not enter the player in the game wrt entry, batting order, or re-entry. So, if the CR can have a sub, what position in the batting order does this sub occupy? If it is the catcher's position, then the sub is for the catcher, not the CR. If it is no position, then she is not a sub, but a CR for a CR.

In the heat of the moment, I may very well have allowed it, just as the OP did. But, given the time to think it through, I don't think it is legal.

[JEL]

OOPS!

I told you I may not be reading it correctly! The answer for the FP #36 IS "c".
I was reading the slow-pitch variant of the question which is "d".


The proper rule references for the FP question are; 4-6, 8-9, 10A-2, and 8-10F. I still don't see where these are conclusive, but at least there is a precedence for allowing the substitution. The substitution would be legal, there is nothing I can find to say otherwise, but where I am still not clear is if the F2 can not return to run, why would the F2 sub be allowed to enter and run? If any injury scenario, the EXCEPTIONs may apply.

The CR rule is a speed-up tool anyway, so using that logic you may want to get the "new" pitcher off the base, but the "new" F2 will remain, so have we sped up, or not?

[CecilOne]

The catcher can not run for the CR unless the CR is injured or unless another player is injured and the player being CR is the only available sub.
In this case, S2 is available, so the injury to F1 does not qualify as an exception.

S1 can replace F2, but can not take over as the runner.

[jwwashburn]

OK, could the Offensive coach have changed #8 from a CR to a PR THEn replaced #8? This all seems silly, but I would like to do things correctly.

Joe in Michigan

[Ed Maeder]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

OK, could the Offensive coach have changed #8 from a CR to a PR THEn replaced #8? This all seems silly, but I would like to do things correctly.

Joe in Michigan

No the CR can not be used as a sub(PR) in the same half inning as they CR. Unless injury or DQ.