Pinch runner for a courtesy runner?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by JEL

That sounds plausible, but I'm not sure it is legal.

ASA and NFHS CR rules are identical, so in doing some digging per ASA I found a 2007 ASA test question which is pertinent.

36FP) JO Fast Pitch. In the bottom of the third inning, B1, who is the catcher, leads off with a single. After reaching 1B the offensive coach requests time and reports CR1 for the catcher. R2 executes a sacrifice bunt moving CR1 to 2B. The offensive coach again requests time and reports that S1 will substitute for B1, the catcher, and CR1 will return to the dugout. The umpire rules:
a. Illegal, a substitute may not enter the game for a courtesy runner.
b. Illegal, the team must put the catcher back in for the courtesy runner.
c. Legal and S1 replaces the catcher in the line-up.
d. None of the above.

The answer key says "d" is the correct answer, which would make "c" not legal. The rules reference though is to 8-9-B-2 which is NOT the Fast Pitch section. I can't find where subbing for the catcher would be dis-allowed in the rules, but according to the test it would not be allowed. Perhaps there is a mis-print in the ASA test, or (heaven forbid) I am not reading something correctly!

I considered "c", but remembered that the pitcher or catcher can not run in place of the CR, unless the CR is injured.
Which is also saying that "a" applies, but is not the whole story or I guess the point of the question.

[Dakota]

1) The catcher cannot return to run once the CR has been entered, barring an injury to the CR or to another player with no other subs available.

2) The CR cannot have either a CR (by rule) or a sub (since the CR is not officially in the lineup).

3) The catcher can have a sub, but whether the starting catcher or her sub, neither can return to run for the CR (exceptions noted above).

I do not believe what the coach did was legal.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

1) The catcher cannot return to run once the CR has been entered, barring an injury to the CR or to another player with no other subs available.

2) The CR cannot have either a CR (by rule) or a sub (since the CR is not officially in the lineup).

3) The catcher can have a sub, but whether the starting catcher or her sub, neither can return to run for the CR (exceptions noted above).

I do not believe what the coach did was legal.

I see your points, and could probably be led to interpret the situation this way. But here are my questions:

Does a courtesy runner NOT qualify as a player? 3-3-2

The other issue I have, is that had the offensive coach substituted #8 for F2, all of this is irrelevant, since #8 is a player and the coach could substitute for #8, either by re-entry or another eligible sub. But, by declaring #8 a courtesy runner, #8 is locked to the basepath, even though by being able to substitute for a CR, the coach doesn't lose any options had he originally substituted in the first place.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I see your points, and could probably be led to interpret the situation this way. But here are my questions:

Does a courtesy runner NOT qualify as a player? 3-3-2

The other issue I have, is that had the offensive coach substituted #8 for F2, all of this is irrelevant, since #8 is a player and the coach could substitute for #8, either by re-entry or another eligible sub. But, by declaring #8 a courtesy runner, #8 is locked to the basepath, even though by being able to substitute for a CR, the coach doesn't lose any options had he originally substituted in the first place.

I agree the issue goes away if the runner had been a pinch runner instead of a CR.

A CR is a player wrt the general rules regarding players (proper uniform, etc.), but she is not in the lineup. By definition, becoming a CR does not enter the player in the game wrt entry, batting order, or re-entry. So, if the CR can have a sub, what position in the batting order does this sub occupy? If it is the catcher's position, then the sub is for the catcher, not the CR. If it is no position, then she is not a sub, but a CR for a CR.

In the heat of the moment, I may very well have allowed it, just as the OP did. But, given the time to think it through, I don't think it is legal.

[JEL]

OOPS!

I told you I may not be reading it correctly! The answer for the FP #36 IS "c".
I was reading the slow-pitch variant of the question which is "d".


The proper rule references for the FP question are; 4-6, 8-9, 10A-2, and 8-10F. I still don't see where these are conclusive, but at least there is a precedence for allowing the substitution. The substitution would be legal, there is nothing I can find to say otherwise, but where I am still not clear is if the F2 can not return to run, why would the F2 sub be allowed to enter and run? If any injury scenario, the EXCEPTIONs may apply.

The CR rule is a speed-up tool anyway, so using that logic you may want to get the "new" pitcher off the base, but the "new" F2 will remain, so have we sped up, or not?

[CecilOne]

The catcher can not run for the CR unless the CR is injured or unless another player is injured and the player being CR is the only available sub.
In this case, S2 is available, so the injury to F1 does not qualify as an exception.

S1 can replace F2, but can not take over as the runner.

[jwwashburn]

OK, could the Offensive coach have changed #8 from a CR to a PR THEn replaced #8? This all seems silly, but I would like to do things correctly.

Joe in Michigan