Was it a strike?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CLBuffalo

In fast pitch I'm watching for the ball to go over the back knee. I can't imagine a ball going under the front knee and then over the back knee. Are you saying that in fast pitch it only has to go over the front knee and not hit the plate for it to be a strike or that the umpire only has to see it go over the front knee?

Man, you need to see a good drop ball pitcher, or one with a low rise.

Any part of the ball touching any part of the strike zone at any part of the plate. A good drop can easily hit the front of the plate at the top of the knee then break down. A good low rise can be just below the zone at the front of the plate, and hit the level of the top of the knee by the back of the plate. Both are strikes that need to be called, without regard to either knee being in front, behind, or even with the plate.

[CLBuffalo]

Probably the best thing about this forum is if enough seasoned and expert people tell you that what you are doing is wrong, then it probably is wrong, no matter how long you have been doing it. I don't know where the idea that the pitch has to cross both knees came from but I've been calling that for 23 years and I now see that I am wrong. Why this has never been picked up before in the clinics I've attended or by other umpires I've worked with or in games where I've been evaluated and critiqued I don't know. The fun part now is going to be in retraining myself.

Thanks to all who kept calling this to my attention, even when I was adamant that I was right. Thank you also for not calling me or saying in the forum what you might have been thinking to yourselves about my attitude. I can be stubborn but eventually it does get through.

I hope the others who post here will listen intently to what is said and go through it thoroughly in their minds before being quick to say they are right and others are wrong. I will be doing this in the future.

[Al]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Al,

Unfair to batter - There is no requirement to hit the strike zone, which means the 5'2" batter has the same "zone" as the 6'6" batter. If you are the latter, you probably don't care. However, if you are the previous, you might have a problem. A pitch can hit the front of the plate, never coming even close to the batter's front knee and it's a strike.

Unfair to the pitcher - A legal 7' pitch can clear the mat even though it is a perfectly good pitch in a legal strike zone and be ruled a ball because it missed the mat. A pitcher is more of a target as s/he must throw the ball down the middle. No curves, no catching the corners, etc.

Thanks Mike,

Good points! The more I think about what you said the more I think this mat ball takes too much away from the game...both batters and pitchers as you pointed out. ...

Tonight if the field has dried out, and no more rain comes (looks like it might) I will be umpiring for the same two teams that played last Monday where I ejected the head coach of the Bears. Because of all the rainouts this past week it will be his first game since the ejection so I hope I don't have any trouble with him. I wonder if he plans to come over to offer an apology, as he told the administrator he would do if I let him coach the game after the ejection? I wonder if I should just let it go if he doesn't and let him coach anyway? Or would it be better for me not to let it go and remind him that without an apology he must leave the field? ...Anyone want to comment? Must do so within a few hours. Thanks, ... Al

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Al

I wonder if he plans to come over to offer an apology, as he told the administrator he would do if I let him coach the game after the ejection? I wonder if I should just let it go if he doesn't and let him coach anyway? Or would it be better for me not to let it go and remind him that without an apology he must leave the field? ...Anyone want to comment? Must do so within a few hours. Thanks, ... Al

I don't carry over behavior issues from one game to the next.

Suspensions after an ejection are a league issue, not an umpiring issue. (I know from earlier comments you were put in this position, but, still...)

With these two principles as a guide, I would ignore the whole thing. Let tonight's game stand on its own. In fact, if the coach does come over to apologize, I might be tempted to say something like, "Thanks, coach. But tonight is a new game; clean slate. Let's just play ball."

PS: If he does NOT apologize, I would still play the game, not bring it up at all, but then report to the league admin that the coach did not apologize. Let them deal with the ramifications, if any.

[mcrowder]

Al - if he comes to apologize, the best thing you can do is say something like - "Coach, I umpire so many games that I don't even remember the incident you are referring to. I appreciate the apology, but I assure you it's water under the bridge."

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Al

Thanks Mike,

Good points! The more I think about what you said the more I think this mat ball takes too much away from the game...both batters and pitchers as you pointed out. ...

Tonight if the field has dried out, and no more rain comes (looks like it might) I will be umpiring for the same two teams that played last Monday where I ejected the head coach of the Bears. Because of all the rainouts this past week it will be his first game since the ejection so I hope I don't have any trouble with him. I wonder if he plans to come over to offer an apology, as he told the administrator he would do if I let him coach the game after the ejection? I wonder if I should just let it go if he doesn't and let him coach anyway? Or would it be better for me not to let it go and remind him that without an apology he must leave the field? ...Anyone want to comment? Must do so within a few hours. Thanks, ... Al

You just need to approach this game as though nothing had ever happened. Forget that last week ever existed. Tabula rasa. Good luck.

[Al]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't carry over behavior issues from one game to the next.

Suspensions after an ejection are a league issue, not an umpiring issue. (I know from earlier comments you were put in this position, but, still...)

With these two principles as a guide, I would ignore the whole thing. Let tonight's game stand on its own. In fact, if the coach does come over to apologize, I might be tempted to say something like, "Thanks, coach. But tonight is a new game; clean slate. Let's just play ball."

PS: If he does NOT apologize, I would still play the game, not bring it up at all, but then report to the league admin that the coach did not apologize. Let them deal with the ramifications, if any.

Thanks Dakota,

Sounds right to me! But if that's the way it works out I don't think I'll say a word to the administrator unless he asks.

And thanks to Mcrowder as well...Glad I asked you guys! ... I'll let you know what happens. ...Take care, ..Al

[Al]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

You just need to approach this game as though nothing had ever happened. Forget that last week ever existed. Tabula rasa. Good luck.

Thanks Skahtboi,

I will take all of the advice offered and think this approach may even improve the relationship with this coach. Thank you sir, ...Al

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Al - if he comes to apologize, the best thing you can do is say something like - "Coach, I umpire so many games that I don't even remember the incident you are referring to. I appreciate the apology, but I assure you it's water under the bridge."

Why lie, even if it didn't undermine your credibility? Accept the apology in a polite manner and say nothing else.

[Al]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why lie, even if it didn't undermine your credibility? Accept the apology in a polite manner and say nothing else.

Hey Cecil,

Well, as the teams were warming up I told the coaches "a couple more warm up minutes then bring your girls in it's almost time to get started. Then about a minute later coach 'Richard' came over to me with his hand out and said "I got a little carried away last week and I was wrong" He started to say more when I said "Hey Rich, it's almost time to play ball, last week is over, gone and forgotten...Then he said "thanks Al" while tightly squeezing my hand. I could tell he really appreciated the way I handled this somewhat difficult situation. Anyway, the game went very well but his team got swamped 21 to 2...Those Twisters are really good, and fun to watch. But I understand how the other teams feel about getting beaten badly every time they play the Twisters. They placed 3rd a couple weeks ago in an 8 team tournament series against some of the best teams in the state. One girl who was telling me about the games said an Umpire made them lose one of the games...with a terrible call! Nothin like fun at the ole' ball park! ...Later, ...Al

[DKDsMom]

This is the original poster. I thank you all for your patience in dealing with a novice like myself. I realize I am only a parent and not a professional as all of you but I like to know and understand the rules of the sports my kids are involved in. I have read your responses to the best of my ability. Now if someone can put this into layman's terms, can a pitched ball be considered a strike when the batter does not swing and the ball hits the plate? Remember these are 5th -7th grade girls (not travel) with a pitcher (my daughter) who is 10 years old and just starting to windmill pitch (which at times can mean a high arc). The batter also may or may not be standing completely adjacent to the plate (either more forward or back).

Again, to all the experts thank you for your time.

[LIIRISHMAN]

Originally Posted by Igotthetag

No, I'm pretty sure that the definition of a strike does not require that it be above both knees in fast pitch. The pitch only needs to break the plane of the front edge of the plate within the bounds of the strike zone and then it can drop, curve, rise, do whatever even if it carrys the ball outside the strike zone it is still going to be a strike. JMHO.

Duane

Reading your reply you legally could be calling strikes at the players ankles. You'd also be leading the league in ejections

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by DKDsMom

...Now if someone can put this into layman's terms, can a pitched ball be considered a strike when the batter does not swing and the ball hits the plate?

Speaking ASA.
No. If the pitched ball not swung at hits the plate, it is by definition a ball. Arc or no arc, doesn't matter. Position of the batter, doesn't matter. Age of the players, doesn't matter.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by DKDsMom

Now if someone can put this into layman's terms, can a pitched ball be considered a strike when the batter does not swing and the ball hits the plate?

To put it as simply as I can, no.

[Igotthetag]

Reading your reply you legally could be calling strikes at the players ankles. You'd also be leading the league in ejections LIIRISHMAN

You're probably correct about calling some strikes at the ankles. I've seen some pitchers who could do that and also I have hit against some in my much younger years...Ejections, I don't think so...What was that pregame discussion that we had about balls and strikes, sir/madam(whichever the case might be)?