The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 10:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Columbus, MS
Posts: 273
Time Out before Illegal Substitution

Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 10:31am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukat View Post
Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of
D.

Perhaps A in C-Level SubV games.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 10:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 923
A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play. That's why having 12 on the field before the snap is a foul. The defense can't prepare if they don't know who will be playing.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 10:46am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play. That's why having 12 on the field before the snap is a foul. The defense can't prepare if they don't know who will be playing.
Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 10:55am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NW OH
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke.
This isn't true anymore. Technically they can break the huddle with 12 as long as the replaced player is leaving the field within 3 seconds being notified he's replaced..

Rule 3-7-1: Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field within three seconds.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 10:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Columbus, MS
Posts: 273
I am speaking varsity and my crew has been having this same conversation about this call for 2 weeks now

For the record, we granted the TO and did not throw the flag but upon further thinking I am still saying we should have thrown the flag and then asked if he still wanted the TO.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 11:05am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 566
If the flag is not already out and on the ground, then grant the TO with no penalty (and especially no "option"). I don't particularly care what level you may be talking about, unless of course you are talking NCAA and A is breaking the huddle with 12 or more.
__________________
Indecision may or may not be my problem

Last edited by Mike L; Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 11:10am.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 11:12am
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?
Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 11:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 156
I agree with Mike L. I do not see the team gaining an unfair advantage so no post-TO flag.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 11:55am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.
Argh. My bad. I SHOULD assume questions are FED when not listed, but I can't teach myself to do that apparently.

OK, Fed - if the sub entered and the replaced player did not leave in the prescribed amount of time - you have a penalty. Just as i said before, you don't waive off the penalty if a time out happened after it.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 12:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,621
I've just been working on illegal substitution, because we messed one up last Friday.

FED has both live-ball and dead-ball IS. For a dead-ball IS (replaced player fails to leave within 3 seconds), you would have to determine whether the coach requested the TO before the foul occurred. Penalize only if the TO request came after the foul, and ask the coach if he still wants the TO.

For a live-ball IS (replaced player is running off the field but does not make it prior to the snap), this is not a foul until the snap. Provided the coach requests a TO prior to the snap, it is not a foul. Shouldn't have to wave off a flag because there shouldn't be one.

See Case Book, 3.7 COMMENT
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 12:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,621
I should add that as I reread it, the OP sounds like dead-ball IS, since the official was recounting 12. If you're counting twice, then the foul occurred before the TO request; penalize and give the coach the option to withdraw the request.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 12:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I've just been working on illegal substitution, because we messed one up last Friday.

FED has both live-ball and dead-ball IS. For a dead-ball IS (replaced player fails to leave within 3 seconds), you would have to determine whether the coach requested the TO before the foul occurred. Penalize only if the TO request came after the foul, and ask the coach if he still wants the TO.

For a live-ball IS (replaced player is running off the field but does not make it prior to the snap), this is not a foul until the snap. Provided the coach requests a TO prior to the snap, it is not a foul. Shouldn't have to wave off a flag because there shouldn't be one.

See Case Book, 3.7 COMMENT

Of course he requested a TO before the foul occurred
__________________
The officials lament, or the coaches excuses as it were: "I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you"
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 12:22pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,694
If I can't get the players counted and the flag on the ground before the TO request, I'll grant the TO without a penalty.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 21, 2010, 01:47pm
MRH MRH is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
If I can't get the players counted and the flag on the ground before the TO request, I'll grant the TO without a penalty.
I agree. I don't see where an advantage has been gained.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
illegal Substitution or illegal Participation verticalStripes Football 11 Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:57am
illegal substitution yankeesfan Football 6 Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:20am
Illegal Substitution whistleman Volleyball 8 Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:43am
illegal substitution or something else? Topshelf Football 9 Sat Jul 16, 2005 03:18am
Illegal Substitution??? FSCoach Baseball 14 Wed May 15, 2002 06:13pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:58am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1