Time Out before Illegal Substitution

[Dukat]

Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dukat

Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of

D.

Perhaps A in C-Level SubV games.

[bisonlj]

A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play. That's why having 12 on the field before the snap is a foul. The defense can't prepare if they don't know who will be playing.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play. That's why having 12 on the field before the snap is a foul. The defense can't prepare if they don't know who will be playing.

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke.

This isn't true anymore. Technically they can break the huddle with 12 as long as the replaced player is leaving the field within 3 seconds being notified he's replaced..

Rule 3-7-1: Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field within three seconds.

[Dukat]

I am speaking varsity and my crew has been having this same conversation about this call for 2 weeks now

For the record, we granted the TO and did not throw the flag but upon further thinking I am still saying we should have thrown the flag and then asked if he still wanted the TO.

[Mike L]

If the flag is not already out and on the ground, then grant the TO with no penalty (and especially no "option"). I don't particularly care what level you may be talking about, unless of course you are talking NCAA and A is breaking the huddle with 12 or more.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?

Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.

Argh. My bad. I SHOULD assume questions are FED when not listed, but I can't teach myself to do that apparently.

OK, Fed - if the sub entered and the replaced player did not leave in the prescribed amount of time - you have a penalty. Just as i said before, you don't waive off the penalty if a time out happened after it.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play.

I could fairly easily imagine circumstances in which they would have, if they wait to call time out depending on how they see the defense react. OK, not much of an advantage, but watching the other team prepare to substitute could be a little more useful if your 12th lingers a bit.

Still, I would hope the answer to be A.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Dukat

Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of

CANADIAN RULING:

Substitution fouls occur at the snap, so any valid TO request trumps this foul.

[Dukat]

Once again, This is the issue my crew had with it.

Looking back, I feel we should have thrown the flag. If I am honest w/ myself, I will admit that my hand was on the flag when I heard the whistle from the side for the TO. The foul had occurred, it just had not been called yet.

For those asking, I was inferring to a pre-snap, dead ball call would have been made.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dukat

Once again, This is the issue my crew had with it.

Looking back, I feel we should have thrown the flag. If I am honest w/ myself, I will admit that my hand was on the flag when I heard the whistle from the side for the TO. The foul had occurred, it just had not been called yet.

For those asking, I was inferring to a pre-snap, dead ball call would have been made.

I think you should have flagged it anyway. I'm not going to crucify you for it though - obviously there are more here that share your view than mine!!! Much to my surprise.

[Dukat]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think you should have flagged it anyway. I'm not going to crucify you for it though - obviously there are more here that share your view than mine!!! Much to my surprise.

Actually I share your view, I just did not act on it at the time

[cmathews]

Mcrowder I understand your position here. I also think you are misreading how others are viewing it. It isn't advantage disadvantage, it is the cost of the penalty. To me if the coach wants to spend a timeout to "buy" this penalty, then the "cost" is equal or more. IMHO