Time Out before Illegal Substitution

[Dukat]

Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dukat

Situation: You are counting players, do the 2nd count to be sure and as you are reaching for your flag to throw the illegal substitution penalty the offending coach calls timeout with the linesman.

Do you:
A) Grant TO and leave it at that
B) Grant TO and throw flag for IS
C) Deny TO and throw flag
D) Throw flag and ask if he still wants TO
E) Something else I am not thinking of

D.

Perhaps A in C-Level SubV games.

[bisonlj]

A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play. That's why having 12 on the field before the snap is a foul. The defense can't prepare if they don't know who will be playing.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

A

Because they took the time out they didn't gain an unfair advantage by disguising who their 11 will be on the next play. That's why having 12 on the field before the snap is a foul. The defense can't prepare if they don't know who will be playing.

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke.

This isn't true anymore. Technically they can break the huddle with 12 as long as the replaced player is leaving the field within 3 seconds being notified he's replaced..

Rule 3-7-1: Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field within three seconds.

[Dukat]

I am speaking varsity and my crew has been having this same conversation about this call for 2 weeks now

For the record, we granted the TO and did not throw the flag but upon further thinking I am still saying we should have thrown the flag and then asked if he still wanted the TO.

[Mike L]

If the flag is not already out and on the ground, then grant the TO with no penalty (and especially no "option"). I don't particularly care what level you may be talking about, unless of course you are talking NCAA and A is breaking the huddle with 12 or more.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Even at varsity?

The penalty happened (if it didn't happen earlier) when the huddle broke. There is no other penalty you're going to waive off if they call a time out after it happened... so why this one?

Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.

[ppaltice]

I agree with Mike L. I do not see the team gaining an unfair advantage so no post-TO flag.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Fed/NCAA difference. Legal to break the huddle with 12 in Fed.

Argh. My bad. I SHOULD assume questions are FED when not listed, but I can't teach myself to do that apparently.

OK, Fed - if the sub entered and the replaced player did not leave in the prescribed amount of time - you have a penalty. Just as i said before, you don't waive off the penalty if a time out happened after it.

[mbyron]

I've just been working on illegal substitution, because we messed one up last Friday.

FED has both live-ball and dead-ball IS. For a dead-ball IS (replaced player fails to leave within 3 seconds), you would have to determine whether the coach requested the TO before the foul occurred. Penalize only if the TO request came after the foul, and ask the coach if he still wants the TO.

For a live-ball IS (replaced player is running off the field but does not make it prior to the snap), this is not a foul until the snap. Provided the coach requests a TO prior to the snap, it is not a foul. Shouldn't have to wave off a flag because there shouldn't be one.

See Case Book, 3.7 COMMENT

[mbyron]

I should add that as I reread it, the OP sounds like dead-ball IS, since the official was recounting 12. If you're counting twice, then the foul occurred before the TO request; penalize and give the coach the option to withdraw the request.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I've just been working on illegal substitution, because we messed one up last Friday.

FED has both live-ball and dead-ball IS. For a dead-ball IS (replaced player fails to leave within 3 seconds), you would have to determine whether the coach requested the TO before the foul occurred. Penalize only if the TO request came after the foul, and ask the coach if he still wants the TO.

For a live-ball IS (replaced player is running off the field but does not make it prior to the snap), this is not a foul until the snap. Provided the coach requests a TO prior to the snap, it is not a foul. Shouldn't have to wave off a flag because there shouldn't be one.

See Case Book, 3.7 COMMENT

Of course he requested a TO before the foul occurred

[Rich]

If I can't get the players counted and the flag on the ground before the TO request, I'll grant the TO without a penalty.

[MRH]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If I can't get the players counted and the flag on the ground before the TO request, I'll grant the TO without a penalty.

I agree. I don't see where an advantage has been gained.