illegal substitution

[yankeesfan]

i believe there was a slight change to the illegal participation this year, but i would like to know the final verdict on this play situation. A11 thinking he has been replaced comes off the field, then realizing he is suppose to be in the game, goes back on the field and does not get in between the numbers and the play gets off. is this illegal substitution, participation, or what? and if so, penalty(live ball?) and yardage.

[dokeeffe]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

i believe there was a slight change to the illegal participation this year, but i would like to know the final verdict on this play situation. A11 thinking he has been replaced comes off the field, then realizing he is suppose to be in the game, goes back on the field and does not get in between the numbers and the play gets off. is this illegal substitution, participation, or what? and if so, penalty(live ball?) and yardage.

It isn't illegal substitution or illegal participation. A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. He, as the 11th. player, doesn't fit the definitions. What you probably have is illegal motion. If you would rather, and the player wasn't between the 9-yard marks between the ready for play and the snap, you can have an illegal formation. Better - flag the A team coach for unsportsmanlike conduct (intentional confusing play) - when he strongly objects throw another on him and put him on the bus. Can you tell I do a lot of baseball?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

i believe there was a slight change to the illegal participation this year, but i would like to know the final verdict on this play situation. A11 thinking he has been replaced comes off the field, then realizing he is suppose to be in the game, goes back on the field and does not get in between the numbers and the play gets off. is this illegal substitution, participation, or what? and if so, penalty(live ball?) and yardage.

REPLY: A lot of things to consider here. First of all, the 2006 rule change was to fix the problem caused by the 2005 rule change. In the simplest terms, it is once again set up to penalize a substitute who enters the field during the down as a non-player illegal substitution foul as long as he did not participate in the play (the way it was back in 2004 and prior). If he does participate (and now the term "participate" is defined in rule 2), it's then penalized as a live-ball illegal participation foul under the all-but-one principle. And remember in this case, the spot of the foul is where he participated, not necessarily where he re-entered the field. Also note that if you do rule it illegal substitution, it's a non-player foul, and penalized from the succeeding spot. That means that any action that occurred during the down--including a score by A--will stand.

For this play, none of this seems to apply since A11 is neither a replaced player nor a substitute.

If A11 has not been between the nine yard marks at some time after the ready and prior to the snap, then he is guilty of illegal formation, a live ball foul that occurred simultaneous with the snap and penalized from the previous spot.

Also, as mentioned earlier, A11 is subject to all the rules related to Team A movement (motion, shift).

However, please do NOT flag this as unsportsmanlike conduct. Two reasons: (1.) if you feel that it was a ploy to deceive Team B just prior to the snap, it's clearly covered under the illegal participation restrictions (see NF 9-6-4d), and even more importantly (2) flagging it as USC calls for succeeding spot enforcement which means that anything that happens during the play stands--including any score by Team A!

[dokeeffe]

However, please do NOT flag this as unsportsmanlike conduct. Two reasons: (1.) if you feel that it was a ploy to deceive Team B just prior to the snap, it's clearly covered under the illegal participation restrictions (see NF 9-6-4d), and even more importantly (2) flagging it as USC calls for succeeding spot enforcement which means that anything that happens during the play stands--including any score by Team A![/QUOTE]

Bob, I had my tongue planted firmly in my cheek when I suggested that a flag be thrown for unsportmanlike and then another to get rid of him. The ONLY way I'd do that is if he parted his hair on the right side of his head.

[irefky]

Originally Posted by dokeeffe

Better - flag the A team coach for unsportsmanlike conduct (intentional confusing play) - when he strongly objects throw another on him and put him on the bus. Can you tell I do a lot of baseball?

Becareful with the ejection in football. In comparison, a player loses much much more if ejected in football than baseball. With at least 10 games and post season and in baseball, what 30+ games a year. A player and team gets punished severly in football than any other sport.

I guess in football, it's an agressive sport and officials need to bite their tongue a little more than any other sport. Now, if you have any penalties or behaviors that affect the safety of a player, sure ejection is fine. I am just using the situation that our baseball umpire gave us.

I agree, in baseball I am much more strict for some reason as compared to football and me giving you the above is why. That is another topic and off of this one, sorry, my .10 worth.

[RoyGardner]

This type of play, even if it is based on a real "mistake" and not "planned" ahead of time is IMO one of those few plays where the possible "downside" of letting the play go off far outwieghs the possible "downside" of simply blowing the play dead before or at the snap and sorting it out then.

IMO in both codes there are multiple rules that are clearly intended to make sure that it is very obvious what 11 players are "really" going to be in the upcoming play, and when either team gets into the "now I'm in, now I'm not in" mode it's time for some preventative officiating.

IMO we blow it dead, sort it out, penalize if needed, talk to the coaches and move on. That's much better than having the discussion at halftime, or at the end of the game, that we should have flagged that "trick play" that resulted in a score.

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by irefky

Becareful with the ejection in football. In comparison, a player loses much much more if ejected in football than baseball. With at least 10 games and post season and in baseball, what 30+ games a year. A player and team gets punished severly in football than any other sport.

And, in New Jersey if you have 3 or more DQ's on any one team during the season they forfeit their right to play in the post season tournament.