Illegal Substitution???

[FSCoach]

HS Game: Man on First no outs. Visiting team pinch hits. Pinch Hitter checks into the game with the Home Plate umpire. The pinch hitter is wearing uniform #13.

The pinch hitter bunts and the runner from first to second is retired at second and the pinch hitter is safe on first base.

The home team (in the field) points out to the umpire that there is already a #13 in the game and that the situation should be treated like a batting out or order or illegal subsitution. They claim, that they have no way of telling if the new hitter wasn't the other #13 who had made an out in the previous inning.

(There really are 2 different #13's on the bench at the start of the game but no official rosters or lineup cards that would make that clear before the start of the game.)

After some discusion, the umpires call the pinch hitter out and now have two outs in the inning with no one on base.

Did they make right call?

[umpyre007]

Originally posted by FSCoach
HS Game: Man on First no outs. Visiting team pinch hits. Pinch Hitter checks into the game with the Home Plate umpire. The pinch hitter is wearing uniform #13.

The pinch hitter bunts and the runner from first to second is retired at second and the pinch hitter is safe on first base.

The home team (in the field) points out to the umpire that there is already a #13 in the game and that the situation should be treated like a batting out or order or illegal subsitution. They claim, that they have no way of telling if the new hitter wasn't the other #13 who had made an out in the previous inning.

(There really are 2 different #13's on the bench at the start of the game but no official rosters or lineup cards that would make that clear before the start of the game.)

After some discusion, the umpires call the pinch hitter out and now have two outs in the inning with no one on base.

Did they make right call?

No!

The name makes the player, not the number. I've done games that have a mixture of varsity and JV duplicate numbers, or games where a team has purchased additional uniforms and duplicated a number. Always go by the player's name, not the number.

The FED case book has a similar interpretation: "1.1.2 SITUATION: F4, Brown, listed in the batting order as wearing uniform No. 4, is wearing No 21. After reaching base in the third inning, defensive coach appeals to the umpire that Brown is batting out of order. Ruling: While Brown is in technical violation of the rule that requires that player's name, shirt number and position be on the lineup card, there is no penalty, since the batting-out-of-order rule requires only that the name be in the proper order. If the number was correct but the player batting was not Brown, the batting-out-of-order penalty would be imposed. Listing of both numbers and positions provides easier record keeping for scorekeepers and umpires."

[jicecone]

""(There really are 2 different #13's on the bench at the start of the game but no official rosters or lineup cards that would make that clear before the start of the game.)""

Did they make right call?

They made the wrong call right at the begining of the game by not getting the lineup cards from each team. RULE 1, covers this. This could have been prevented starting with the pre-game.

Not only that but the pinch hitter checked into the game you said. That must have been with a cermonial nod because the PU had no lineup card to look at. I find it very hard to belive that nobody could remember which #13 batted in the previous inning.

Now if the umpires agreed that they player was an illegal substitute, (which seems as though they did), then the player was not only out , but also ejected from the game. Any outs recorded on the play remain and now we only have one #13 in the game. That is the fault of the umpire, because they did'nt get a lineup at the begining of the game and checkit during the substitution.

[FSCoach]

It really was a new #13 and a new player to the game. The pinch hitter had not previously entered the game. Everyone really new that, but home team coaches claimed that "How can we really know for sure?" I Agree with that question, that you really can't know for sure especially if this is the first time either of these teams played each other.

You are correct that it could have all been avoided by an exchange of lineups cards before the game with all elligible players listed as reserves. However, that did not happen and the umps and to make a decision at the time and they felt that they had no real way of telling whether or not the new #13 was batting out of order. So they decided to call him out.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by jicecone

Now if the umpires agreed that they player was an illegal substitute, (which seems as though they did), then the player was not only out , but also ejected from the game. Any outs recorded on the play remain and now we only have one #13 in the game. That is the fault of the umpire, because they did'nt get a lineup at the begining of the game and checkit during the substitution.

I don't care if all the players of the team wore #13, the lineup is the player, not the number. There is Fed caseplay to support that.

These umpires were wrong with their decision. The sub was NOT an illegal sub for this reason, and the play should have stood despite the opposing coach's complaints.


Just my opinion,


Freix

[jicecone]

Bfair

Your right, I was reading into the "illegal substitution definition". All we have then is a legal substitution for the batter.

Thankyou

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jicecone
They made the wrong call right at the begining of the game by not getting the lineup cards from each team. RULE 1, covers this. This could have been prevented starting with the pre-game.

Even if you get line-up cards, they aren't required to list all (or any) of the substitutes.

[jicecone]

"Even if you get line-up cards, they aren't required to list all (or any) of the substitutes"

I agree but when you have one on the card and another one steps up as a substitute, I would think some bell would go off. It also could have helped in silencing the discussion that followed.

"Hey coach, they have two #13's and they are both in the game legally, Play on".

[FSCoach]

But as the opposing coach or umpires, if I allow the other team to use players with the same uniform # how am I supposed to know if the player that is up is the player that is supposed to be up. How do I know that the pinch hitter #13 isn't the original #13? Am I supposed remember his physical characteristics?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by FSCoach
But as the opposing coach or umpires, if I allow the other team to use players with the same uniform # how am I supposed to know if the player that is up is the player that is supposed to be up. How do I know that the pinch hitter #13 isn't the original #13? Am I supposed remember his physical characteristics?

If it really gets to be a problem, mark the uniform in some way (put a piece of tape across the number, ...)

The first time it happens, ask the players their names. IF you do this before they know why it's an issue, they'll give the proper answer.

[jicecone]

FSCoach.

This has nothing to do with what you allow!
Is it within the guideline of the rules and do the rules allow it. I have seen too many officials that feel it is incumbent upon theirself to make up rules or not call a rule because they either did'nt read it or did'nt like them. And Im not talking about a borderline interpretation either.

This is another discussion unto itself.

[johnSandlin]

FS Coach,

I have to agree with my fellow umpires on this topic. The name makes the player, not the number. When I am PU in my games, I tell the coaches to run the changes through me and when they report the change, to give me a name, and not a number.

As a fellow official already refered to, there is a situation in the casebook, saying the name not a number is correct. In closing, the umpires in the situation you brought up made the wrong call.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by FSCoach
But as the opposing coach or umpires, if I allow the other team to use players with the same uniform # how am I supposed to know if the player that is up is the player that is supposed to be up. How do I know that the pinch hitter #13 isn't the original #13? Am I supposed remember his physical characteristics?

How do you know the proper number is the proper player even if they all have separate numbers?
How do you know they don't switch jerseys in the dugout?

If it bothers you that much, make them produce a driver's license, if they're too young to have one, then they're too young to complain about.............

Of course, I'd also check all your ID's if I'm the opposition.

BTW, I wouldn't make them produce ID's unless league rule supported it (which some adult leagues do).
I was just trying to make a point.

Baseball is a game.......................
Sometimes the kids mature faster than their managers........


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Tim C]

Numbers have NO VALUE on a legal lineup card.

As stated above subs don't even need to be listed by rule . . . and if listed there are no penalties if you error while writing them down (i.e. like maybe you forget one).

The umpires errored on calling the out.

There was no illegal sub . . . no violation of ANY rule.

AND some of the schools where I work have problems EVEN AFFORDING uniforms for all players . . . we often see duplicate numbers.

Coach, I just see you reacting to getting the answer you DON'T want to hear . . . we can only apologize for telling you the truth.

Tee

[FSCoach]

I appreciate everyone's input.