Punt Near Endzone

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is this really that hard? Peace

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

Who is everyone else? Everyone in my state? Everyone across the country? Everyone I work with? Who is everyone? Please do not equate a conversation that the average official is not involved in and say everyone else. If that is the case then no one I have ever worked with marks 4 or 5 different first touching spots. Never had anyone suggest that be the case at the college or high school ranks. And if you have actually read this site and payed attention to what people say, they do not bring enough bean bags with them to accomplish the unlikely possibility if the ball is touched mulitple times. If what you suggest is done, then most people here that talk about how many bean bags they have would not be able to bean bag more than one first touching spot and then the end of the kick and then the likelihood for a fumble if one takes place by R after the end of the kick. I am sure you will tell me that the end of the kick spot is not important either as it has other ramifications in the game but 5 first touching spots are crucial.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

And you are not aware enough to know where the furthest most spot is? You have to bean bag each spot too? I bet you are one of those guys that need a white and a blue bean bag to determine the end of the kick from a first touching spot too?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

Wait a minute, which one is it? You either use every bean bag for every spot or you do not? Oh you throw your hat? Next then you are going to tell me is you use a bean bag too for an out of bounds spot.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

I said I was marking one spot for first touching. And if a ball is touched at R's 1 and the ball dies at the 4, kind of easy to figure out where we are putting the ball. And I am not looking for your credibility as I have that were it counts. Sorry, I have never put too much stock in what is said here and worry about my credibility. You are throwing your hat for a mark and you are worried about my credibility? We stopped doing that years ago because it looks silly. But you are worried about my credibility? I have a few things on my uniform that gives me all the credibility I need.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

[Rich]

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

You are correct Rich. If the time between the touching at the 1 and 4 is short and you aren't in too much of a hurry, you might only get the bag down at the 4. If you had already dropped it at the 1 and then it was touched again at the 4, you would either drop a second bag or move your first bag after the play. I've typically heard to get a bag down at each spot of first touching but that isn't always practical or logical. For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

So are you saying you are going to have a hard time figuring out to put the ball at the 20?

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

We moved past the OP about 3 pages ago. Why you keep bringing it up is a mystery. You are obviously not going to answer the question - answering it correctly will show you to be incorrect for 3 pages of discussion, answering it again with your same wrong response will merely show you to not know your rules. I KNOW, with near certainty, that we will not get an answer from you. You dodge and dodge, because you, sir, are simply wrong. Your posturing and attacking doesn't change that.

I'm sure it doesn't concern you at all - your ego is big enough that it won't matter, but I'm sure there are several on here who previously respected your posts and felt you were a rather knowledgeable and helpful poster here, and who no longer feel that way at all. I include myself in that group. Defending a clearly wrong position, and refusing to admit you simply made a mistake way back 3 pages ago have cost you a lot of credibility.

But again - your opinion of you FAR supercedes ours, so I'm sure you don't care. I do know that several will now read your responses with considerably more than a bucket of salt.

PS - "Everybody" in my previous post referred to EVERYBODY, except you, who is participating in this discussion. And you who have so much disdain for the use of a hat - what would you use if you ran out of bags? Sorry coach ... didn't get that spot because I think dropping my hat looks silly.