Punt Near Endzone

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

I do not know how many here are Back Judges, but I doubt or have never seen one bean back 5 different spots. You bean bag one and you put the ball at the furthest most point if the kick ends without a return. The same thing on a free kick. You bean bag the spot of first touching in the neutral zone and then you keep officiating. Then whatever is the most advantageous spot is what we are going to put the ball. That is what I am looking for (which was the question) and let my Referee know what is that spot or if the ball is behind the spot.

I think this conversation is asinine. It is silly beyond belief because I would bet that most individuals have not worked the Back Judge position at the level I have and had to make these decisions on a regular basis as I have. Many here are making it complicated by trying to split hairs which the spot is. In almost all the situations that take place the K team touches the ball they are not trying to bat the ball all over the place. If the ball goes toward R's goal they are going to try to keep it going towards that goal. If the ball goes back toward K's goal line K is likely to possess the ball and if they don't it will be pretty obvious where we are going to put the ball.

Is this really that hard?

Peace

[golfnref]

He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by golfnref

He is slowly seeing the light but not admitting it. Obviously he subscribes to the premise that a good offense is a good defense or vice versa. If all else fails, dazzle them with footwork.

Whatever man. I have been doing this a long time and my work on the field speaks for itself. I am sorry I am not overly technical like some here and likely can only prove it on here and not on the field. Thanks for the laugh!!!

I did not lose a single game or position by what those want to think as we are having this conversation.

Peace

[bisonlj]

JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

JRut...I think the issue here is when given the scenario with K first touching the ball the R1 then the R4 and finally possessing it at the R2, you said R's options were the R1 and R2. Based on your last comment, do you now agree their options are the R1, R2, and R4 and they will obviously take the R4? This could easily happen if a K player tries to bat it back toward their goal line at the R1 and then in an attempt to possess the ball another K players muffs it at the R4 and eventually possesses it at the R2. This isn't K "batting the ball all over the place".

I really do not care anymore. It is your issue, not mine.

I have a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. I am only marking first touching once with a bean bag (as a Back Judge and only having so many bean bags to begin with) and the ball will be place at one spot or the other in most case. If you need someone to give you all the possibilities, then you either do not know how to read the rules (because there are many rules with exceptions and different situations that apply) then I do not know what to tell you. And still the OPer has not said they had a problem understanding what they asked.

Peace

[asdf]

Anyone ever see the episode on Happy Days where The Fonz was uttering.....


"I was wrrrrrrrrrrruuunnnn.... I was wwrruuunnnnnnn....." ????

He just couldn''t bring himself to admit it.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to review anything I said. There are going to be two spots that are important. We are going to put the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. One of the spots is going to be in front of the other. We are going to bean bag the spot of first touching and if we have to determine another spot we do that.

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

Yeah, that's what he's saying. I KNOW this to be wrong in NCAA, and have been convinced by the other posts here that it's wrong in FED too. Not starting the next play at the 4 is contrary to not only rule but fairness. Ignoring part of the rule is laziness, nothing less.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is this really that hard? Peace

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Jeff, you really need to review this rule and mechanic. Every spot of first touching is relevant and needs to be bagged. This is the very reason for the mechanics change several years ago requiring BJs to carry more than 1 bean bag.

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Apparently it is ... just for you. Refusing to bag the relevant spots is lazy. Refusing to read and apply the rule is worse. EVERYONE ELSE but you understands this concept.

Who is everyone else? Everyone in my state? Everyone across the country? Everyone I work with? Who is everyone? Please do not equate a conversation that the average official is not involved in and say everyone else. If that is the case then no one I have ever worked with marks 4 or 5 different first touching spots. Never had anyone suggest that be the case at the college or high school ranks. And if you have actually read this site and payed attention to what people say, they do not bring enough bean bags with them to accomplish the unlikely possibility if the ball is touched mulitple times. If what you suggest is done, then most people here that talk about how many bean bags they have would not be able to bean bag more than one first touching spot and then the end of the kick and then the likelihood for a fumble if one takes place by R after the end of the kick. I am sure you will tell me that the end of the kick spot is not important either as it has other ramifications in the game but 5 first touching spots are crucial.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

For the record, at varsity I AM a backjudge. And yes, I've seen the ball do exactly as I've described in this play. One player trying to save the ball from the endzone bats it backward from around the one. Beanbag. The ball then hits one of the other guys coming down a little further downfield (in this case the 4). Beanbag. It then rolls a bit toward the goal line from that guy before it's either downed or stops on it's own.

And you are not aware enough to know where the furthest most spot is? You have to bean bag each spot too? I bet you are one of those guys that need a white and a blue bean bag to determine the end of the kick from a first touching spot too?

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will admit I'm not likely to start chucking both beanbags, my hat and a shoe to keep all the spots if it goes further than this. In THIS case, I would probably not throw a 3rd thing (my hat) unless another K touching happened further upfield than the 4. Not sure what I'd do if a 4th was needed - it's never happened. But the need for 2 bags happens rather often - a few times a season.

Wait a minute, which one is it? You either use every bean bag for every spot or you do not? Oh you throw your hat? Next then you are going to tell me is you use a bean bag too for an out of bounds spot.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

One official's insistence that he's going to ignore the rules because it doesn't suit him really takes a LOT of credibility away from his other posts here - something I previously thought that poster had a lot of.

I said I was marking one spot for first touching. And if a ball is touched at R's 1 and the ball dies at the 4, kind of easy to figure out where we are putting the ball. And I am not looking for your credibility as I have that were it counts. Sorry, I have never put too much stock in what is said here and worry about my credibility. You are throwing your hat for a mark and you are worried about my credibility? We stopped doing that years ago because it looks silly. But you are worried about my credibility? I have a few things on my uniform that gives me all the credibility I need.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

[Rich]

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.