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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 09:38am
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Punt Near Endzone

I'm not a football official and am just looking for a quick answer.

What is the key as to where the ball is placed with a punt down near the endzone? Is it where there feet are at the time they touch the ball or is it like baseball and it doesn't matter where the person is only where the ball was touched at the time?

Also does the ball just have to be touched, or in secure possession?

Thanks for helping.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 09:51am
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NCAA football rules, it is where the BALL is.

Dont watch much NFL, but I seem to recall NFL is about where the players feet are?
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 09:51am
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The only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead. The feet play no role in if the ball is considered in the EZ, only the ball matters. We have a rule called "first touching" and that is a spot where the kicking team first touches the ball. That spot might be used or the dead ball spot might be used, which is advantageous to the receiving team. The bottom line is we try to be on or near the goal line so we can determine where the ball goes in the EZ or not.

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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 09:53am
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You don't mention what ruleset, so mileage may vary, and I'll specifically state that NFL rules are completely different from what I'm about to say.

NCAA rules (and I believe Fed is same or close):
All that matters is the ball. Period. Nothing else. A player laying completely in the endzone that stops the ball from crossing the plane of the endzone is not a touchback. You ask about possession - if the ball is possessed by the kicking team, the play is dead. If not, it's not. So you could have multiple touches by the kicking team - the receiving team (assuming they don't eventually pick up the ball and then get a penalty) will get to pick the most advantages spot of the many touches. Also, if the ball remains motionless and no one is attempting to recover it, it's dead at that point as well.

Hope that answered your question.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 09:57am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead. The feet play no role in if the ball is considered in the EZ, only the ball matters. We have a rule called "first touching" and that is a spot where the kicking team first touches the ball. That spot might be used or the dead ball spot might be used, which is advantageous to the receiving team. The bottom line is we try to be on or near the goal line so we can determine where the ball goes in the EZ or not.

Peace
Is that FED? Are you saying that in FED, if the kicking team touches it at the 1, and taps it back, then it's touched again at the 4 and rolls to the 2, the only options are the 1 and the 2? Not the 4? Seems odd if that's what you mean. This would mean that once the ball is tapped back, the next guy to touch it could intentionally cause the ball to roll forward at no cost.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 10:00am
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Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes View Post
Dont watch much NFL, but I seem to recall NFL is about where the players feet are?
That would be correct. If a player jumps from the field of play and is able to bat/toss a ball in the air back, it would not be a touchback.

NFL
Rule 9, Section 2, Article 2

Item 2: If a player of the kicking team touches the goal line with any part of his body while touching the ball, the ball is dead, and the result of the play is a touchback.

Note: The spot of first touching is normally the yard line at which the ball is at when touched. If the first touching occurs while the ball is in the air above or beyond the goal line, and prior to the ball touching the goal line or the ground beyond the goal line, the spot of first touching is deemed to be the spot from which the touching player left the field of play, but in no event inside the receiving team's one-yard line.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 10:51am
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Is that FED? Are you saying that in FED, if the kicking team touches it at the 1, and taps it back, then it's touched again at the 4 and rolls to the 2, the only options are the 1 and the 2? Not the 4? Seems odd if that's what you mean. This would mean that once the ball is tapped back, the next guy to touch it could intentionally cause the ball to roll forward at no cost.
Most of us NF rules here. I know you are from Texas, but most people are not exposed to NCAA rules unless we actually work a college game. And unless they specifically want to talk about those levels I answer all questions in FED. Also the OPer is not a football official and was not asking this as a football official, I was not trying to give a rules clinic or get so detailed that I use terms and things that only football officials would understand. So I do not know why you have a hard time understand what was said.

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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:15am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Most of us NF rules here. I know you are from Texas, but most people are not exposed to NCAA rules unless we actually work a college game. And unless they specifically want to talk about those levels I answer all questions in FED. Also the OPer is not a football official and was not asking this as a football official, I was not trying to give a rules clinic or get so detailed that I use terms and things that only football officials would understand. So I do not know why you have a hard time understand what was said.

Peace
It's not at all that I had a hard time understanding it... I was trying to learn - all of my FED knowledge comes from you guys, here. This one surprised me. So i guess you are confirming that in my scenario the 4 is not an option? Would you have to rule differently if it was obvious the player was intentionally rolling the ball back to the 1 (would illegal batting cover that?)

Not trying to be difficult, trying to make sure I understood you correctly.

(And I did mention in my response that it was NCAA only and that I THOUGHT Fed was similar ... apparently similar but not identical!)

PS - if I had to suspect anything, I suspect the OP was actually asking about an NFL game - of which I have very little rules knowledge other (again) than what I learn here. Glad to see that the 3 of us have covered all 3 rulesets for him.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:34am
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I had to read his question again to make sure I did not misread anything that would have affected my answer.

Well the rules on the NF and NCAA level are very similar. Of course NCAA has a different situation as to when a ball is dead in the EZ, but for the most part the rules are the same. I was not trying to get into penalties that are possible with this as well as those are rare and not something you would have to rule on in most plays. You could have illegal batting, but it legal to bat the ball back towards your goal on kick. But just because someone bats the ball does not mean it is illegal either. That is why we have the first touching rule and that spot must be marked and let the play continue for what might result.

Maybe he did think of the NFL, but he is an official in another sport so I suspect that he has some knowledge that most officials here are not pro officials.

Peace
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:01pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Is that FED? Are you saying that in FED, if the kicking team touches it at the 1, and taps it back, then it's touched again at the 4 and rolls to the 2, the only options are the 1 and the 2? Not the 4? Seems odd if that's what you mean. This would mean that once the ball is tapped back, the next guy to touch it could intentionally cause the ball to roll forward at no cost.
No, Rut's wrong if that's what he's saying (since it's wrong, I'm sure he'll declare that he wasn't saying that ).

NFHS 6-1-6:
If any K player touches a free kick before it crosses R’s free-kick
line and before it is touched there by any R player, it is referred to as “first touching
of the kick.” R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if
there is more than one spot of first touching
, or they may choose to have the ball
put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching.

6-2-5 has the same language for scrimmage kicks.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:28pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
No, Rut's wrong if that's what he's saying (since it's wrong, I'm sure he'll declare that he wasn't saying that ).
What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case.

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOofficial View Post
I'm not a football official and am just looking for a quick answer.

What is the key as to where the ball is placed with a punt down near the endzone? Is it where there feet are at the time they touch the ball or is it like baseball and it doesn't matter where the person is only where the ball was touched at the time?

Also does the ball just have to be touched, or in secure possession?

Thanks for helping.
CANADIAN RULING:

A punt that enters the EZ is live.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:52pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case.

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace
All those words, and you STILL can't answer mbcrowder's question.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case.

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace
Wow, what a verbose way to avoid the question.

You stated that there are only 2 spots that matter. FIRST touching, and the dead ball spot. Since that differs from NCAA (and is apparently wrong according to mb), I asked you if the ball was initially touched at the 1 and rolls back to the 4, at which point it was touched AGAIN and then rolls to the 2 - does FED only give the 2 options you stated - FIRST touching at the 1, or dead ball spot at the 2 - ignoring the 4. You then railed on me for asking you a question about your answer that didn't jive with what I knew from NCAA, and now you say you were not only not wrong, but ignore the 2nd touch completely again.

Not trying to be a jerk here - I was just trying to understand the FED rule, which apparently you stated incorrectly.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 01:25pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Wow, what a verbose way to avoid the question.

You stated that there are only 2 spots that matter. FIRST touching, and the dead ball spot. Since that differs from NCAA (and is apparently wrong according to mb), I asked you if the ball was initially touched at the 1 and rolls back to the 4, at which point it was touched AGAIN and then rolls to the 2 - does FED only give the 2 options you stated - FIRST touching at the 1, or dead ball spot at the 2 - ignoring the 4. You then railed on me for asking you a question about your answer that didn't jive with what I knew from NCAA, and now you say you were not only not wrong, but ignore the 2nd touch completely again.

Not trying to be a jerk here - I was just trying to understand the FED rule, which apparently you stated incorrectly.
I'm not speaking for Jeff, but I think we all know that there are three options for placing the ball here. The disconnect appears to me to be that the first touch and every subsequent touch by K are referred to as "first touching" in the NFHS. 6-1-6 refers to the possibility "there is more than one spot of first touching".

In your situation, R has the option to put the ball at the spot of first touching (either one) or at the dead ball spot. The ball could end up at the 4, 2, or 1.

Technically, the statement "the only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead" is true. I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.
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