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Old Sun Oct 22, 2006, 07:48pm
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holding in the endzone

team B intercepts a pass in the end zone and after the interception a player from team B holds in the endzone. (a) team b downs the ball in the endzone, (b) team b runs the ball out to the 15 yard line. where is the penalty enforced from in both situations?
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Old Sun Oct 22, 2006, 08:45pm
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From the 20.
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Old Sun Oct 22, 2006, 09:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan
team B intercepts a pass in the end zone and after the interception a player from team B holds in the endzone. (a) team b downs the ball in the endzone, (b) team b runs the ball out to the 15 yard line. where is the penalty enforced from in both situations?
The basic spot in (a) is the 20 yard line, and in (b) it is the 15 yard line. In both cases you have a safety cuz the offensive team committed a foul behind the basic spot and the foul occured in their own EZ. This is a classic "but one" in the "all but one" penalty enforcement.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 02:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan
team B intercepts a pass in the end zone and after the interception a player from team B holds in the endzone. (a) team b downs the ball in the endzone, (b) team b runs the ball out to the 15 yard line. where is the penalty enforced from in both situations?
This exact play (a) occured in the 2004 (Yates Cup), in Waterloo.

(a) Accept: Apply the penalty from the 20. Decline: Award B 1D/10 @ B-20.

(b) Accept: Apply the penalty from the 20. Decline: Award B 1D/10 @ B-20.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 01:18pm
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MJT's got it, someone's intitial reaction might be to enforce from the 20 since the result was a touchback, but since B got the ball with clean hands, they surely can't committ a penalty in their own endzone, it would be just like A holing in their own endzone. Safety.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 01:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar729
MJT's got it, someone's intitial reaction might be to enforce from the 20 since the result was a touchback, but since B got the ball with clean hands, they surely can't committ a penalty in their own endzone, it would be just like A holing in their own endzone. Safety.
REPLY: Right...just remember that B's 20 (succeeding spot) is the basic spot when the result of the play is a touchback. You still need to apply the "all-but-one" principle to that in order to get the true enforcement spot.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan
team B intercepts a pass in the end zone and after the interception a player from team B holds in the endzone. (a) team b downs the ball in the endzone, (b) team b runs the ball out to the 15 yard line. where is the penalty enforced from in both situations?
Safety.

(And if I could change ONE rule, this would be it.)
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 01:34pm
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what would you change? the safety that stems from a foul in the endzone? Doesnt seem all that bad to me...
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 01:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar729
MJT's got it, someone's intitial reaction might be to enforce from the 20 since the result was a touchback, but since B got the ball with clean hands, they surely can't committ a penalty in their own endzone, it would be just like A holing in their own endzone. Safety.
By rule, you're right - it is (by rule) enforced just like A holding in their endzone.

But the reason I hate this, and would make this my 1 rule change if I had the chance is this:

In the play where A holds in their own endzone, the ballcarrier was in the EZ in danger of a safety. It's possible or even probable that A's hold prevented an actual safety.

In the OP, with B's penalty in the EZ, the ballcarrier was in the EZ, but was NOT in danger of a safety. If B's penalty prevented a tackle in the EZ, all it prevented was a touchback.

If Fairness is our goal when constructing our penalty enforcements, it makes no sense (from a fairness point of view) to award a safety because of a penalty that did not help the penalized team avoid a safety.

(And yes, on the field, I'm awarding the safety and biting my tongue).
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 01:44pm
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While B's ball carrier was not in danger of a safety, your still holding in the endzone and whether the result is a TB, safety, or other, that team is still responsible for fouling behind their own goalline, regardless of what they were trying to prevent.
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Old Mon Oct 23, 2006, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar729
While B's ball carrier was not in danger of a safety, your still holding in the endzone and whether the result is a TB, safety, or other, that team is still responsible for fouling behind their own goalline, regardless of what they were trying to prevent.
I agree with you that that's how the rule is currently written.

The issue, for me, is that a safety requires some pretty specific things - a player with the ball, outside his own endzone, bringing it back into his own endzone and being stuck there, unable to get out. Except in this one incongruous instance, where a player has the ball in his own EZ because of the OTHER team putting it there, and solely due to an accident of timing, someone fouls while he's still in there (even if he's only got it for 2 seconds, and is in the process of kneeling down).

The logic of the normal play (A foul in the EZ while A has the ball in the EZ) makes sense - if not for the foul, it's possible that there would be a safety - so the penalty for illegally preventing a safety should be ... a safety.

The logic of this one makes no sense - if not for the foul, B would have the ball on the 20. The foul does not prevent A from scoring 2 points and getting the ball back - so the penalty for that foul should not be 2 points and getting the ball back. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, so to speak.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 08:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar729
While B's ball carrier was not in danger of a safety, your still holding in the endzone and whether the result is a TB, safety, or other, that team is still responsible for fouling behind their own goalline, regardless of what they were trying to prevent.

I think we all realize that is the rule, as written. What crowder is saying, and I agree, is that the punishment doesn't seem to fit this situation.

When A holds in the EZ to prevent a sack on his QB, he prevented a safety from occurring. However, in the above example, as has been mentioned, all the foul did was prevent a touchback.
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC
I think we all realize that is the rule, as written. What crowder is saying, and I agree, is that the punishment doesn't seem to fit this situation.

When A holds in the EZ to prevent a sack on his QB, he prevented a safety from occurring. However, in the above example, as has been mentioned, all the foul did was prevent a touchback.
It would take a two-arms-around-the-waist at the point of attack tackle for me to throw such a flag, too.

Of course, I'm a WH and I wouldn't be the one down there, either
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 01:12pm
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Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC
...However, in the above example, as has been mentioned, all the foul did was prevent a touchback.
REPLY: Did it? What if in (b) the defender ran it out of the endzone and took it 102 yards? Then the hold facilitated a TD...right?
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Old Tue Oct 24, 2006, 01:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Did it? What if in (b) the defender ran it out of the endzone and took it 102 yards? Then the hold facilitated a TD...right?
Well, of course. And I didn't mean for it come accross that there should be no penalty for the foul. Just don't think a safety should be the result.

I think there needs to be a special enforcement for this.
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