Punt Near Endzone

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

You are correct Rich. If the time between the touching at the 1 and 4 is short and you aren't in too much of a hurry, you might only get the bag down at the 4. If you had already dropped it at the 1 and then it was touched again at the 4, you would either drop a second bag or move your first bag after the play. I've typically heard to get a bag down at each spot of first touching but that isn't always practical or logical. For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

We moved past the OP about 3 pages ago. Why you keep bringing it up is a mystery. You are obviously not going to answer the question - answering it correctly will show you to be incorrect for 3 pages of discussion, answering it again with your same wrong response will merely show you to not know your rules. I KNOW, with near certainty, that we will not get an answer from you. You dodge and dodge, because you, sir, are simply wrong. Your posturing and attacking doesn't change that.

I'm sure it doesn't concern you at all - your ego is big enough that it won't matter, but I'm sure there are several on here who previously respected your posts and felt you were a rather knowledgeable and helpful poster here, and who no longer feel that way at all. I include myself in that group. Defending a clearly wrong position, and refusing to admit you simply made a mistake way back 3 pages ago have cost you a lot of credibility.

But again - your opinion of you FAR supercedes ours, so I'm sure you don't care. I do know that several will now read your responses with considerably more than a bucket of salt.

PS - "Everybody" in my previous post referred to EVERYBODY, except you, who is participating in this discussion. And you who have so much disdain for the use of a hat - what would you use if you ran out of bags? Sorry coach ... didn't get that spot because I think dropping my hat looks silly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We moved past the OP about 3 pages ago. Why you keep bringing it up is a mystery. You are obviously not going to answer the question - answering it correctly will show you to be incorrect for 3 pages of discussion, answering it again with your same wrong response will merely show you to not know your rules. I KNOW, with near certainty, that we will not get an answer from you. You dodge and dodge, because you, sir, are simply wrong. Your posturing and attacking doesn't change that.

It was the premise the question was answered on my behalf. That might not be important to you, but that is important to me.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm sure it doesn't concern you at all - your ego is big enough that it won't matter, but I'm sure there are several on here who previously respected your posts and felt you were a rather knowledgeable and helpful poster here, and who no longer feel that way at all. I include myself in that group. Defending a clearly wrong position, and refusing to admit you simply made a mistake way back 3 pages ago have cost you a lot of credibility.

Well we all have an ego. If you had the right ego in my opinion, you would accept your take on this and move on. But for some reason you want me to verify what you already think. And yes I have an ego, this is why I have done the things I have done and for the period of time I have. Of course I have an ego and I am going to do what I feel is best based on my training and experience. You even claimed you have no experience at the NF level, but my ego is at issue? Maybe if you had your ego in check you would accept that I have done this longer than you have and do what works.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But again - your opinion of you FAR supercedes ours, so I'm sure you don't care. I do know that several will now read your responses with considerably more than a bucket of salt.

I did not say my opinion is all that matters. I did not even try to keep score as to who agreed with me or not. I said I told you what "I" am going to do. You do what works for you. If you want to throw 80 bean bags for every touch that is your right. But I find it odd that most people here have always advocated only having a couple of bean bags (even in a recent conversation) and all of a sudden 4 bean bags are to come out for each first touching spot. Based on what "everyone" has said here before, that would not work as they would lose one of the spots if that was an expectation.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

PS - "Everybody" in my previous post referred to EVERYBODY, except you, who is participating in this discussion. And you who have so much disdain for the use of a hat - what would you use if you ran out of bags? Sorry coach ... didn't get that spot because I think dropping my hat looks silly.

I love how you change the discussion from what I said about the hat. I said "we" (meaning our mechanics and philosophy in the area I live and certainly on my crew) stopped using the hat for stuff long time ago. And certainly throw a hat not for a spot of all things. Even if we have a player that goes out of bounds, we do not use the hat for that either. And since you are so worried about coaches, I have never had a coach argue with me or anyone about a first touching spot and a dead ball spot. NEVER!!!! Now that is in 15 years of varsity football and multiple playoff opportunities when they really get heated about stuff. I have heard a lot of complaints, but never an issue with where a spot is marked for first touching. And like I said before, the dead ball spot and the first touching spot is often very obvious from each other. I do not worry about the boogie man that is under the bed because someone on an internet site thinks I should worry about those things. This is not my first rodeo.

Peace

[Just Me]

Guys....give it up. You will NEVER get him to admit he was wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Just Me

Guys....give it up. You will NEVER get him to admit he was wrong.

Because I am not wrong.

And the fact that a troll had to do so by joining today is telling. If you cannot be man enough to stay who you are, then what are you afraid of?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

So are you saying you are going to have a hard time figuring out to put the ball at the 20?

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So are you saying you are going to have a hard time figuring out to put the ball at the 20?

Peace

Nope...that one goes at the 20 because it is the best spot of first touching for R. It doesn't take away the fact the 14 and 16 are also spots of first touching but you probably don't need to bag them because R is not likely to take the ball at those spots.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Nope...that one goes at the 20 because it is the best spot of first touching for R. It doesn't take away the fact the 14 and 16 are also spots of first touching but you probably don't need to bag them because R is not likely to take the ball at those spots.

You ask which spot they want? Really?

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

You cannot figure out where the first touching spot and dead ball spot is? There is only going to be one of each that matter and one spot where we are putting the ball unless there is a penalty.

I am still trying to figure out why you need 8 bean bags to make that determination? Oh, you probably use a white bean bag for one thing and another for the end of the kick.

Peace

[Just Me]

Actually, you were wrong. Despite all your bluster, resume posting, excuses, & insults, you were painfully wrong. It's just you can't admit it. And that's where you tragically fail.

mcomber asked
"So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots?"

and your answer was
"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead."

[ppaltice]

I only bean bag the first spot, and move the bean bag when the play is dead if I have a better spot of first touching. I not the "best spot" in the same way that I note the yard line if I miss the spot of a foul when I toss my flag. I reserve my second bean bag for the end of the kick if I need it.

I was looking in the AHSAA mechanics guide and they offer no additional guidance for multiple spots of first touching. They do note "if bean bag falls on wrong yard line, after the play is over, immediately move it to the correct yard line."

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to review anything. I am marking two spots. One for first touching and one for the end of the kick. And I carry more than one bean bag (but like usual you probably did not understand that either) and only one first touching spot matters and one end of the kick spot matters. And as it relates to the first touching spot, we are still only marking one of them. Why, because the spot was either in front or behind the ball.

I personally carry three bean bags, but most people here claim they only carry two (if you read and pay attention to this board). So I guess marking multiple spots is going to be difficult for most people as we must mark 5 different first touching spots according to you.

Peace

Jeff, I did not attack you. I did not insult you. I've always treated you with respect. I expect the same respect in return.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but when you say you're only marking 2 spots it makes it difficult to comprehend.

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Assume a punt is grounded at R's 10. K1 bats the ball at R's 2. The batted ball hits K2 at R's 8. The ball rolls out of bounds at R's 4.

Can you tell me where you're dropping your bean bags and what options are offered to R?

Why are we still trying to wrestle this greased pig? He WILL NOT answer your question because he knows he was blatantly wrong. He will respond to your question with something like, "Walt - how can you not know the answer to this." followed by an insult to you, a bit of ego-bluster or resume-spewing, and a comment that he doesn't have to help you understand what you couldn't possibly understand. He'll probably yell at you for not knowing the 10 is irrelevant even though you never said it was.

HE KNOWS HE WAS WRONG. That is why he won't answer this directly. He's simply sitting in his mother's basement, getting excited about how much he's stirred things up. Thus, Jeff has landed in troll-landia.

This teaches me who I should and should not ask when requesting enlightenment regarding FED rules.