Punt Near Endzone

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I'm not speaking for Jeff, but I think we all know that there are three options for placing the ball here. The disconnect appears to me to be that the first touch and every subsequent touch by K are referred to as "first touching" in the NFHS. 6-1-6 refers to the possibility "there is more than one spot of first touching".

In your situation, R has the option to put the ball at the spot of first touching (either one) or at the dead ball spot. The ball could end up at the 4, 2, or 1.

I guess the suggestion is that you are going to bean bag every spot the ball is touched too?

I would love to see that reference in a mechanics book or training.

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Technically, the statement "the only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead" is true. I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.

Because it is the internet and there are people that are more concerned with unimportant facts than what was asked. I seriously doubt the OPer even knew what "first touching" was in the first place. I can get into some minor or silly details to from time to time on this site, but this is ridiculous (and funny).

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.

I don't think anyone's "having trouble with it". I stated right up front that I don't work FED. A simple, "in NFHS, 'first touching' refers to all touches" would have cleared it up.

(Kind of a dumb term for 2nd, 3rd, etc touches, don't you think?)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess the suggestion is that you are going to bean bag every spot the ball is touched too?

I would love to see that reference in a mechanics book or training.

Because it is the internet and there are people that are more concerned with unimportant facts than what was asked. I seriously doubt the OPer even knew what "first touching" was in the first place. I can get into some minor or silly details to from time to time on this site, but this is ridiculous (and funny).

Peace

Hmmm. I was asking you a valid clarification question, and stated flat out that I don't work FED. I promise --- I will fail to ask you in the future. It was not an unimportant fact. Had I read what you posted, then for some reason been asked to call a FED rules game somewhere, I would have messed this situation up. Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

(I hesitate to ask, but I'll risk you being you again in hopes that someone else will answer the question without being a jerk... If you don't bag relevant spots, how would you know to spot this ball at the 4?)

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't think anyone's "having trouble with it". I stated right up front that I don't work FED. A simple, "in NFHS, 'first touching' refers to all touches" would have cleared it up.

Fair enough. I'm starting to think most of this thread is about personality clashes anyway, so I'm going to bow out..

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

(Kind of a dumb term for 2nd, 3rd, etc touches, don't you think?)

Yes.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Fair enough. I'm starting to think most of this thread is about personality clashes anyway, so I'm going to bow out..

Starting to agree with you, although I never felt I had a clash with JRut in the past. How does it go? Lah me!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hmmm. I was asking you a valid clarification question, and stated flat out that I don't work FED. I promise --- I will fail to ask you in the future. It was not an unimportant fact. Had I read what you posted, then for some reason been asked to call a FED rules game somewhere, I would have messed this situation up.

I do not know what you do or don't work or have worked in the past. I have working knowledge of many rules as I work multiple levels.

And if you are asked to work a FED game and you do not use a rulebook to learn a rule, you are in bigger trouble than I would have ever thought. I was answer a question for a person that does not work football, not to clarify something for you. It is not my responsibility to give you rules to understand. I will bet I work more sports and levels than you do and it is my responsibility to learn rules, not anyone on this board. I am even having to learn some NCAA Rules that I have never had to apply because of a position change and I have never come here for clarification. That is my responsibility to learn. Maybe you need people to hold your hand, I tend to look in other places.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

No, because that is not how I understand the rule or how I enforce the rule or explain the rule. Never have and never will. There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

(I hesitate to ask, but I'll risk you being you again in hopes that someone else will answer the question without being a jerk... If you don't bag relevant spots, how would you know to spot this ball at the 4?)

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out? And you did not start the thread or really need me to explain a rule to you. But I am the jerk? I am the one with the problem? That is very rich for sure.

Peace

[Mike L]

Rut,

although I've vowed to not get in the middle of pissing matches here any more, I think here is the problem with your original post.

Quote from MOOfficial:

I'm not a football official

Quote from JRutledge:

We have a rule called "first touching" and that is a spot where the kicking team first touches the ball.

Now, don't you think someone who has admitted to being a non-football official may not understand that there is a possibility of multiple "first touches" and just might assume your statement implies the only touch that matters is the first one since they are operating under standard English rather than football English? Sometimes, you have to remember who your audience is when you answer.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Now, don't you think someone who has admitted to being a non-football official may not understand that there is a possibility of multiple first touches and just might assume your statement implies the only touch that matters is the first one since they are operating under standard English rather than football English? Sometimes, you have to remember who your audience is when you answer.

Yes I think he would not know what that means off the bat. But he is an official so he would likely understand there are rulebook terms that are not in the normal English or have meanings he is not familiar with. And if he had a problem with what I said, he can come here and say that.

I also teach a football class (and a basketball class I designed for an organization for the third year starting in October) every year and have been doing it for years now. Most people have never officiated a single sport when they come to the class. We still use the proper terms off the bat and explain the definitions when appropriate if need be.

I think we should let MOofficial speak for himself and what he was confused by or understand. He might not have been looking for a rule as much as a mechanic. After all he did ask about the feet and touching the GL. I give him a little more credit than some here are giving him.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out?
Peace

Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.



I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

[Mike L]

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Rut,

as a teacher, I think you better review this statement of yours:

"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead".

Specifically rule 6-2-5

Exactly......

If any K player touches a crimmage kick in this manner (talking about first touching) R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching......"

[asdf]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by
any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

Too quick for me bison.....