Punt Near Endzone

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am here to discuss officiating, nothing more. Well I like to have a little fun sometimes after all this is entertainment to pass the time or I really would not be here.



I really was not answering your question. I was not really trying to get you to understand anything. You took me on this issue, not the other way around.

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.

Peace

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

That is exactly what he's saying but he doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. Rule 6-1-6 covers this for free kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching...". Rule 6-2-5 covers this for scrimmage kicks "...R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching..."

The definitions of first touching are covered in Rule 2-12:
ART. 1 . . . During a free kick it is first touching if the ball is touched in the field of play by any K player before it crosses R’s free-kick line and before it is touched there by any R player.
ART. 2 . . . During a scrimmage kick it is first touching if the ball is touched by
any K player in the field of play and beyond the expanded neutral zone before it is touched there by R and before the ball has come to rest.

There is nothing in the definition that states there can only be one "first" touching; any touching within the definitions above is considered first touching. Technically you should have multiple bean bags down if K touches it in multiple places during the kick.

Too bad all the other sillyness here has clouded what should be an excellent lesson for all officials.

Too quick for me bison.....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

Yeah, that's what he's saying. I KNOW this to be wrong in NCAA, and have been convinced by the other posts here that it's wrong in FED too. Not starting the next play at the 4 is contrary to not only rule but fairness. Ignoring part of the rule is laziness, nothing less.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by asdf

Are you saying that if K touches the ball at the 1, the ball then bounds back to the 4, is touched again by K at the 4, bounces again and comes to rest at the 2, the touch at the 4 is ignored?

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

You claimed prior that any othre touches between the first and the ball becoming dead were not relevant......


OK Mr. Big Time State Finals Back Judge who is an instructor and coordinated may clinics around Chicago......

Do you stand by your claim that the other touches are not relevant?

You cannot figure out where the first touching spot and dead ball spot is? There is only going to be one of each that matter and one spot where we are putting the ball unless there is a penalty.

I am still trying to figure out why you need 8 bean bags to make that determination? Oh, you probably use a white bean bag for one thing and another for the end of the kick.

Peace

[Just Me]

Actually, you were wrong. Despite all your bluster, resume posting, excuses, & insults, you were painfully wrong. It's just you can't admit it. And that's where you tragically fail.

mcomber asked
"So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots?"

and your answer was
"For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Just Me

Actually, you were wrong. Despite all your bluster, resume posting, excuses, & insults, you were painfully wrong. It's just you can't admit it. And that's where you tragically fail.

Why don't you be a man and bring your behind to where I am. Then talk to me about what I am doing or saying. Do that then we can talk about what I am wrong about. Are you scared to do that, or are you going to hide behind a little name because you do not have the balls to say it to my face?

I will be waiting?

Peace

[jaybird]

..only one first touching spot matters..

Fundamentally true, but all must be marked/bagged in order to ascertain just which one. The initial spot of first touching may not be the one that matters.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jaybird

Fundamentally true, but all must be marked/bagged in order to ascertain just which one. The initial spot of first touching may not be the one that matters.

Well I am not going to do that. If you want to do that, fine. If you need to do that, fine. I only have so many bean bags and it is not hard to determine what spot is going to be used. I only care three bean bags and one is in my pocket if I misplace or cannot go pick up the other one in a timely manner (rare).

Again, I have a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. It is not that hard to figure out which those are. Never had a problem in my entire career, I do not think this conversation is going to change that.

Do you; do not worry about what others do. I learned to pick up pennies a long time ago. This is one I will leave on the ground.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why don't you be a man and bring your behind to where I am. Then talk to me about what I am doing or saying. Do that then we can talk about what I am wrong about. Are you scared to do that, or are you going to hide behind a little name because you do not have the balls to say it to my face?

I will be waiting?

Peace

Interesting... just had a long talk last night with my 7th grader about not lowering himself to the level of the kid who pretty much said the same thing to him.

[Welpe]

This board can't get enough about the topic of touching...whether it is the phrase "is touching" or "first touching"....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Interesting... just had a long talk last night with my 7th grader about not lowering himself to the level of the kid who pretty much said the same thing to him.

I also learned the unsuccessful people do things that successful people do not do. I will let you figure out how that plays out in this conversation. So you go on worrying about what I think of this.

Peace

[ppaltice]

I only bean bag the first spot, and move the bean bag when the play is dead if I have a better spot of first touching. I not the "best spot" in the same way that I note the yard line if I miss the spot of a foul when I toss my flag. I reserve my second bean bag for the end of the kick if I need it.

I was looking in the AHSAA mechanics guide and they offer no additional guidance for multiple spots of first touching. They do note "if bean bag falls on wrong yard line, after the play is over, immediately move it to the correct yard line."