Counting 7 on the line

[Rich]

Originally Posted by refbuz

If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.

If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.

So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by refbuz

So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.

I don't worry about getting reamed by anyone. But we work as crews on the field and one's mistake is everyone's mistake. I find the "I won't get my butt reamed" mentality awful, to be honest.'

On the counting:

We will both (the R and the U) agree on each play -- if not before, than after.

Besides, the LJ is counting the defense on my crew and the L is setting the down box and/or chains. By the time that's done (and the LJ's count is verified with the BJ) it leaves precious little time to count 11 on the offense, too.

I'd rather have the wings not throw a flag if there's 10 if they aren't sure. If we have 10 and I'm sure the wings didn't see our thumbs down signal, we'll talk after the play. If they have 4 backs then, we'll throw a late flag.

Much ado about nothing.

[ChickenOfNC]

We changed to counting 4 in the backfield this year, and I think it's a bad change.

The rule dictates how many players must be on the LOS. So why not count those players?

Why bring variables into the equation?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

We changed to counting 4 in the backfield this year, and I think it's a bad change.

The rule dictates how many players must be on the LOS. So why not count those players?

Why bring variables into the equation?

I don't work wing often, but I find it hard to count through people. Much easier to count the backfield and look for a punch.

I sense a rule change coming here, too. It makes sense, really.

[ChickenOfNC]

Having counted the line for so long, we pretty much count them as they're walking to the LOS and as they're getting set. Usually no problems.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't worry about getting reamed by anyone. But we work as crews on the field and one's mistake is everyone's mistake. I find the "I won't get my butt reamed" mentality awful, to be honest.'

While I agree with you, the live and die as a crew has some limitations, and really only applies to kicking an enforcement, not fundamental responsibilities. If your gonna ding the U because the BJ misses a DPI on his key, then I don't want to work for you. If that happened I would EXPECT the BJ, to get an earful from an observer because he wasn't doing his job.

On the counting:

We will both (the R and the U) agree on each play -- if not before, than after.

Besides, the LJ is counting the defense on my crew and the L is setting the down box and/or chains. By the time that's done (and the LJ's count is verified with the BJ) it leaves precious little time to count 11 on the offense, too.

I never even implied that the wings should be counting the offense. I merely, said that there's no reason that the wings can't count players on the LOS on their side of the snapper.

Your crew counts the backs and its great that it works for you.

What I don't get is why a wing would want to worry about a 4th back 40 or so yards away, when you could count 3 players that are 15-20 yards away?

just my $.02.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refbuz

What I don't get is why a wing would want to worry about a 4th back 40 or so yards away, when you could count 3 players that are 15-20 yards away?

just my $.02.

Who said anything about being worried? The wing across the field is telling you who is on the line with a signal telling you what they have. Then you count. But then again, often times formations are all over the place and it is not like there are not most of the receivers on one side of the field. It not hard to do.

Peace

[bossman72]

You can easily miss a lineman in your count, espeicially if one of the outer linemen is "eclipsing" one closer to the center.

It's harder for a back to be "eclipsed" by another back, that's why it's easier to check the R/U punch for 11 and count the backs.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bossman72

You can easily miss a lineman in your count, espeicially if one of the outer linemen is "eclipsing" one closer to the center.

I've seen wings miss a lineman this way because they act as if the encroachment rules applied to them.

We're allowed to take a step or two downfield to get an angle on the line.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who said anything about being worried? The wing across the field is telling you who is on the line with a signal telling you what they have. Then you count. But then again, often times formations are all over the place and it is not like there are not most of the receivers on one side of the field. It not hard to do.

Peace

I don't disagree with you that it is easier counting the backs of the formation. But in HS your looking for 7 on the line, regardless of how many players are on the field for A.

All I am saying is that if you count the line instead of the backs, it removes any remote possibility of kicking a formation foul in HS. Provided that the guy across the field can count to 3.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refbuz

I don't disagree with you that it is easier counting the backs of the formation. But in HS your looking for 7 on the line, regardless of how many players are on the field for A.

All I am saying is that if you count the line instead of the backs, it removes any remote possibility of kicking a formation foul in HS. Provided that the guy across the field can count to 3.

Those are too many possibilities. I count 4 after two officials have made a count (and one wing is counting the defense), it much easier to count 4.

Peace