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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 12, 2009, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack015 View Post
Fifty three years ago I learned that eleven minus four equals seven. That has not changed has it ?
No, but the game and mechanics have.
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Old Mon Oct 12, 2009, 04:16pm
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Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
No, but the game and mechanics have.
At the high school level the rules have not changed. If I am working a college game I will worry about their mechanics. Until then, I am counting 4 in the backfield to be legal and 5 or more to be illegal at a high school game. I really do not see the big deal.

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Old Mon Oct 12, 2009, 09:08pm
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If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.

Last edited by refbuz; Mon Oct 12, 2009 at 09:11pm.
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Old Mon Oct 12, 2009, 10:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by refbuz View Post
If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.
If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.
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Old Mon Oct 12, 2009, 11:03pm
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.
So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.
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Old Tue Oct 13, 2009, 08:37am
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Originally Posted by refbuz View Post
So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.
I don't worry about getting reamed by anyone. But we work as crews on the field and one's mistake is everyone's mistake. I find the "I won't get my butt reamed" mentality awful, to be honest.'

On the counting:

We will both (the R and the U) agree on each play -- if not before, than after.

Besides, the LJ is counting the defense on my crew and the L is setting the down box and/or chains. By the time that's done (and the LJ's count is verified with the BJ) it leaves precious little time to count 11 on the offense, too.

I'd rather have the wings not throw a flag if there's 10 if they aren't sure. If we have 10 and I'm sure the wings didn't see our thumbs down signal, we'll talk after the play. If they have 4 backs then, we'll throw a late flag.

Much ado about nothing.
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Old Tue Oct 13, 2009, 09:41am
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We changed to counting 4 in the backfield this year, and I think it's a bad change.

The rule dictates how many players must be on the LOS. So why not count those players?

Why bring variables into the equation?
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Old Tue Oct 13, 2009, 08:17pm
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
I don't worry about getting reamed by anyone. But we work as crews on the field and one's mistake is everyone's mistake. I find the "I won't get my butt reamed" mentality awful, to be honest.'
While I agree with you, the live and die as a crew has some limitations, and really only applies to kicking an enforcement, not fundamental responsibilities. If your gonna ding the U because the BJ misses a DPI on his key, then I don't want to work for you. If that happened I would EXPECT the BJ, to get an earful from an observer because he wasn't doing his job.

Quote:
On the counting:

We will both (the R and the U) agree on each play -- if not before, than after.

Besides, the LJ is counting the defense on my crew and the L is setting the down box and/or chains. By the time that's done (and the LJ's count is verified with the BJ) it leaves precious little time to count 11 on the offense, too.
I never even implied that the wings should be counting the offense. I merely, said that there's no reason that the wings can't count players on the LOS on their side of the snapper.

Your crew counts the backs and its great that it works for you.

What I don't get is why a wing would want to worry about a 4th back 40 or so yards away, when you could count 3 players that are 15-20 yards away?

just my $.02.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 13, 2009, 12:08am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
At the high school level the rules have not changed. If I am working a college game I will worry about their mechanics. Until then, I am counting 4 in the backfield to be legal and 5 or more to be illegal at a high school game. I really do not see the big deal.

Peace
Counting the backs is the college mechanic because the NCAA rule deals with a maximum number of backs not a minimum number of linemen.

You can count 4 in the backfield, it works most of the time. But eventually the R is going to have the count wrong and there will be 4 backs and 6 linemen. You might go 50+ games without the R counting wrong but it will happen, it is only a matter of time.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 13, 2009, 12:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB View Post
Counting the backs is the college mechanic because the NCAA rule deals with a maximum number of backs not a minimum number of linemen.

You can count 4 in the backfield, it works most of the time. But eventually the R is going to have the count wrong and there will be 4 backs and 6 linemen. You might go 50+ games without the R counting wrong but it will happen, it is only a matter of time.
Of course they could have the count wrong, but the Referee is not the only one counting the offense either in college. That is what the Umpire is for too. I am not talking about a one in a million scenario; I am talking about the best way to get a consistent count. Even the wings have to look around players to count properly. The mechanic should be to cover the most common situation, not the very unusual. And I have not seen many times where the Referee and Umpire could not count. Not only this, they are verifying the count with each other.

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