Counting 7 on the line

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Because the rule changed.

Now the rule says not more than 4 backs so there is no need to know how many linemen there are.

Several conferences (Big XII, MWC, C-USA, Southland, LSC, etc.) just changed this year as a result of the rule change which allows a play to be legally run with only 6 on the LOS when they only have 10 on the field. It is a dumb rule that has fostered a dumb mechanic.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

And previously, if you had more than 4 backs, what did you know about linmen? You knew how many linemen there were, if 11 men were on the field. So the method of counting backs was just as effective last year as it is this year.

Here endeth the lesson.

Yes, I understand how it works. In the end it can create problems. Counting 3 on your side of the snapper fixes the problems. Whitehat explained it earlier.

Originally Posted by whitehat

What most officials do in my experience is count the backfield players based on the signal (fist punch) of the R and U. My problem with this is that I think it puts to many variables in the equation.
First and foremost I think it takes the terminlas eyes of the line to count in the backfield. Second, it is not a guarantee that the LJ or L will see the fist punch.
A much more conistent way IMO (how I was trained in college) is to, as Jaybird comments, simply have the terminals count the players on the line on their side of the snapper making brief eye contact with each other. If 3 on your side then a touch to the cap bill, if unbalanced one way or other a fist or hand to face. This way, the terminlas can accurately count without diverting their attention to the backfield and without having to rely on the R or U punch and seeing it or not.

If terminlas count 5 in the backfield is their flag for IP (12 players) or illegal formation? they are not sure what they have they just "know" something isn't right" ...another conference, more opportunity for confusion, etc...

Too many times as an R I count 10 players and then I see no flag on the ground. I ask the terminals how many they had on the line, they say they had 4 in the backfield. Granted we have all different levels of experience as officials and the vets usually have fewer problems but it just seems that if we are counting players on the line then we should count players on the line, and not in the backfield. ..its a lot simpler and accurate that way I believe.

[bisonlj]

I have always counted the backfield and never had an issues with missing something on the LOS. When I first heard about the mechanic of counting linemen I thought they were joking. When I've tried to count the lineman, I have a hard time seeing how many players they are because they tend to blend together. Counting backs seems much easier.

[Bullycon]

In Tennessee, we count the linemen on our side of the snapper and signal to each other.

3 linemen: Fist at shoulder level.
2 linemen: Two fingers at chest.
4 linemen: Hand to face.

If your count plus the other wing's count is equal to or greater than 6, there are enough men on the line. If not, illegal formation. Both wings should have a flag.

[BAlaxer]

We count 3 on each side of the center and hold our signal until the snap. If we have illegal formation both reach for their flags and throw them at the snap. Seems to work well, as long as the guy you are working with can count to 3

[jack015]

Fifty three years ago I learned that eleven minus four equals seven. That has not changed has it ?

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by jack015

Fifty three years ago I learned that eleven minus four equals seven. That has not changed has it ?

No, but the game and mechanics have.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jaybird

No, but the game and mechanics have.

At the high school level the rules have not changed. If I am working a college game I will worry about their mechanics. Until then, I am counting 4 in the backfield to be legal and 5 or more to be illegal at a high school game. I really do not see the big deal.

Peace

[refbuz]

If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by refbuz

If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.

If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.

So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

At the high school level the rules have not changed. If I am working a college game I will worry about their mechanics. Until then, I am counting 4 in the backfield to be legal and 5 or more to be illegal at a high school game. I really do not see the big deal.

Peace

Counting the backs is the college mechanic because the NCAA rule deals with a maximum number of backs not a minimum number of linemen.

You can count 4 in the backfield, it works most of the time. But eventually the R is going to have the count wrong and there will be 4 backs and 6 linemen. You might go 50+ games without the R counting wrong but it will happen, it is only a matter of time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Counting the backs is the college mechanic because the NCAA rule deals with a maximum number of backs not a minimum number of linemen.

You can count 4 in the backfield, it works most of the time. But eventually the R is going to have the count wrong and there will be 4 backs and 6 linemen. You might go 50+ games without the R counting wrong but it will happen, it is only a matter of time.

Of course they could have the count wrong, but the Referee is not the only one counting the offense either in college. That is what the Umpire is for too. I am not talking about a one in a million scenario; I am talking about the best way to get a consistent count. Even the wings have to look around players to count properly. The mechanic should be to cover the most common situation, not the very unusual. And I have not seen many times where the Referee and Umpire could not count. Not only this, they are verifying the count with each other.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by refbuz

So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.

I don't worry about getting reamed by anyone. But we work as crews on the field and one's mistake is everyone's mistake. I find the "I won't get my butt reamed" mentality awful, to be honest.'

On the counting:

We will both (the R and the U) agree on each play -- if not before, than after.

Besides, the LJ is counting the defense on my crew and the L is setting the down box and/or chains. By the time that's done (and the LJ's count is verified with the BJ) it leaves precious little time to count 11 on the offense, too.

I'd rather have the wings not throw a flag if there's 10 if they aren't sure. If we have 10 and I'm sure the wings didn't see our thumbs down signal, we'll talk after the play. If they have 4 backs then, we'll throw a late flag.

Much ado about nothing.

[ChickenOfNC]

We changed to counting 4 in the backfield this year, and I think it's a bad change.

The rule dictates how many players must be on the LOS. So why not count those players?

Why bring variables into the equation?