Counting 7 on the line

[whitehat]

Just wanting some feedback as to how your crews or associations (if they try to standardize this) have officials (probably wings) count for 7 on the LOS.

Its done different ways by different officials and I have an opinion as to what works best but wanted some feedback on what works for you and why.

[InsideTheStripe]

We expect LJ to get the offensive player count from the signal of the R. Our L should have his own count. From there we count players in the backfield to figure out how many we have on the line based on both the wings subsequent signals and the number of A players on the field.

[bossman72]

Count the backs. If you have 4 or less in the back field, you have 7 on the line. You also have to look at the R/U punch for 11. If they give you the signal for less than 11 and you have 4 in the back field, you probably do not have enough on the line.

[ML99]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Count the backs. If you have 4 or less in the back field, you have 7 on the line. You also have to look at the R/U punch for 11. If they give you the signal for less than 11 and you have 4 in the back field, you probably do not have enough on the line.

I do it this way as well.

[whitehat]

Pre-post note: not asking sarcastically here, just trying to understand the theory of counting backfield players instead of counting players on the line:

So, for those of you who count backfield, how do you know what you have? Do you have 12 players on the field or 5 in the backfield? Technically, there is no foul for 5 in the backfield.
You could have 5 in the backfield and 7 on the line. If you have counted the backs only, is your flag for illegal formation or IP?

Or you could have 4 in the backfield and 6 on the line..do you let this go with no flag because you counted 4 in the backfield and since you did not count the line you don't know you have only 6 on the line?

the answer so far has been "If" the R or U or whoever is counting for 11 on A and we see them signal for 11, then we know. Bringing me back to my concern for "too many variables in the equation" and the wings having to look to backfield to count and missing a false start or encrchmnt.

My point is in counting backfield players you have no direct means of actually doing what the rule intends for us to do, that is, determining if a team is legal by having 7 on the line. Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

...still seems to me we are placing too much faith in seeing an accurate and timely punch by the R or U especially with an inexpereinced crew and/or a critical down and distance situation.

Anyway, don't want to beat this into the ground but I am always looking for the best way to manage a game. Maybe counting backfield players is the best, it just has proven too unrealiable in my experience compared to counting 3 on your side of the snapper as a wing.

I realize I may be biased as well as I learned this mechanic (counting 3 on your side of snapper) as a terminal doing college ball and it made a great deal of sense to me.

Thanks for your continued feeback.

[mbyron]

1. I too think that NFHS will follow the NCAA rule change: count 4 in the backfield (which is where the advantage is to be had) and play. If A runs a play with 6 + 4, that will be legal.

2. Nobody counts 7 on the line: the wings count how many on their sides, signal, and infer the rest. Either way involves an inference. This count can end up wrong as easily as counting the backfield.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Pre-post note: not asking sarcastically here, just trying to understand the theory of counting backfield players instead of counting players on the line:

So, for those of you who count backfield, how do you know what you have? Do you have 12 players on the field or 5 in the backfield? Technically, there is no foul for 5 in the backfield.
You could have 5 in the backfield and 7 on the line. If you have counted the backs only, is your flag for illegal formation or IP?

This may sound sarcastic, but why is it hard to understand that the Referee and the Umpire both count the offense as their primary counting responsibility? If they count, they signal what they have. The wings in any system I have ever been involved in are not the primary to call illegal substitutions (which you want to call if you get the count in time and not hard for the Referee especially) or illegal participation if the play happens to go off.

Originally Posted by whitehat

Or you could have 4 in the backfield and 6 on the line..do you let this go with no flag because you counted 4 in the backfield and since you did not count the line you don't know you have only 6 on the line?

Isn't that what the signal is to do? I even as a back judge I signal if a team has less than so if my LJ picks up this, we know what to do when someone runs out on the field. I must be missing something here?

Originally Posted by whitehat

the answer so far has been "If" the R or U or whoever is counting for 11 on A and we see them signal for 11, then we know. Bringing me back to my concern for "too many variables in the equation" and the wings having to look to backfield to count and missing a false start or encrchmnt.

Isn't this was signals are for?

Originally Posted by whitehat

My point is in counting backfield players you have no direct means of actually doing what the rule intends for us to do, that is, determining if a team is legal by having 7 on the line. Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

Let us even say you have one of the wings if not both wings counting the offense that is 3 or 4 people counting the offense. I would hope someone has an accurate count. But if you just have two officials counting, then you do some deductive reasoning. If you have 11, you count who is in the back field. You also have a signal with both wings telling each other who closest to them is on or off the line, which helps determine who is actually in the back field. And then on top of all of this, the play is supposed to go off, so you then have to communicate with partners to make sure you had the right number of players on the field or off the line to stick with the penalty. Is this really that hard to understand?

Originally Posted by whitehat

...still seems to me we are placing too much faith in seeing an accurate and timely punch by the R or U especially with an inexpereinced crew and/or a critical down and distance situation.

What does experience have to do with this? I can tell you when I was a wing; it was hard to count looking through players to get an accurate count. So if I was even counting, I might not see a player standing next to another player. And the two people that are looking directly at the huddle and who is coming in and out of that huddle on a regular basis (it is not that hard to count from the Referee position from my experience). Then if we use your logic, we have one person counting the defense. Are you not relying too much on one person to get that count correct?

Originally Posted by whitehat

Anyway, don't want to beat this into the ground but I am always looking for the best way to manage a game. Maybe counting backfield players is the best, it just has proven too unrealiable in my experience compared to counting 3 on your side of the snapper as a wing.

I realize I may be biased as well as I learned this mechanic (counting 3 on your side of snapper) as a terminal doing college ball and it made a great deal of sense to me.

Thanks for your continued feeback.

I am sorry, this is baffling to me. I cannot imagine how your system makes it easier to count or it puts all the responsibility on one official to count the defense which would be a clear advantage if they played with 12. Often times the signals help you communicate to partners so you make sure you are seeing the same things. That is what the R and U are doing. Now if the rule is different at the college level that is fine, but the rules are the same as they have been for a long time at the high school level. And I do not see them changing with many places only have 4 or 5 officials on the field. In a 7 man you have multiple officials on each side of the ball counting. And I am not sure everyone has adopted this mechanic. I am not sure, but something tells me we are making it more complicated than it really needs to be. I have never done this any other way and no one has ever accused me or others if missing a rule.

Peace

[ML99]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

As a wing I wouldn't have the time and view to count 7men on the LOS. That's why I coun't 4 in the backfield and look for the HR's 11 signal.

[jaybird]

We have the H and L count the players on the line on their side of the snapper, then signal to one another their count. The total must be six as the snapper is a given.
This method allows the LOS officials to keep their main focus on the LOS to watch for pre-snap and neutral zone infractions instead of looking for the R/U who could be several yards from the LOS or looking for backs thus once again, taking the main focus off the LOS.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

We expect LJ to get the offensive player count from the signal of the R. Our L should have his own count. From there we count players in the backfield to figure out how many we have on the line based on both the wings subsequent signals and the number of A players on the field.

That is how I was trained as well.

I believe that with the change in NCAA rules, this is also now the official NCAA and TASO mechanic but I am not sure.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That is how I was trained as well.

I believe that with the change in NCAA rules, this is also now the official NCAA and TASO mechanic but I am not sure.

big fan of the NCAA change, I am hoping that it makes its way down to the Federation, along with not bringing out the captains at Halftime.

[whitehat]

What most officials do in my experience is count the backfield players based on the signal (fist punch) of the R and U. My problem with this is that I think it puts to many variables in the equation.
First and foremost I think it takes the terminlas eyes of the line to count in the backfield. Second, it is not a guarantee that the LJ or L will see the fist punch.
A much more conistent way IMO (how I was trained in college) is to, as Jaybird comments, simply have the terminals count the players on the line on their side of the snapper making brief eye contact with each other. If 3 on your side then a touch to the cap bill, if unbalanced one way or other a fist or hand to face. This way, the terminlas can accurately count without diverting their attention to the backfield and without having to rely on the R or U punch and seeing it or not.

If terminlas count 5 in the backfield is their flag for IP (12 players) or illegal formation? they are not sure what they have they just "know" something isn't right" ...another conference, more opportunity for confusion, etc...

Too many times as an R I count 10 players and then I see no flag on the ground. I ask the terminals how many they had on the line, they say they had 4 in the backfield. Granted we have all different levels of experience as officials and the vets usually have fewer problems but it just seems that if we are counting players on the line then we should count players on the line, and not in the backfield. ..its a lot simpler and accurate that way I believe.

Those of you who count backfield players, have you ever tried counting as suggested on both sides of snapper...

Anyway, this is my .02 cents worth
thanks for your feedback.

[BktBallRef]

Get the signal from the R/U. Count the backs. Simple.

It's never presented a problem.

Doesn't the NCAA now do it the same ? 'Nuff said.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Get the signal from the R/U. Count the backs. Simple.

It's never presented a problem.

Doesn't the NCAA now do it the same ? 'Nuff said.

I didn't think there was another way.

Peace

[HLin NC]

Our accepted mechanic for now, (this battle gets fought regularly, to the point I've not-so jokingly threatened to move to BJ) is to count your side of the snapper and then signal fist straight out to the opposite wing if balanced, and if unbalanced, the fist held against the shoulder (like the IS signal). We used to flash 4 or 2 fingers to your partner on unbalanced but most of us determined that in a lot of circumstances, you really can't see it without really peering.

Our senior HL insists that he counts 7 across each and very time and that we should too. In our association, LJ/BJ count and signal defense. HL has no count responsibilty so I try to count A and then catch R/U's signal to confirm. If I have 4 in the backfield, we're all good.