7 players on the LOS

[JasonTX]

Thankfully we us NCAA rules and counting line players is no longer required. But last year we counted the players on our side of the snapper.

If I had 3 players I would touch the bill of my cap. If both wings gave the same signal all was good.

If I had 4 players on my side of the snapper I would place my hand on my cheek.

If I only had 2 players I would just hold up 2 fingers.

So basically, both wings would add the numbers up and both would have a flag. I only work R now, but when I worked on the wing I had my own responsibilities and waiting to see the R or U signal they had 11 to me away from my area. Also I am at the huddle counting and myself and the U signal pretty quickly so that we can move on to other things so it would be possible that the wings would miss the signal.

This is just the way we did it and whatever works best for you is great.

[KWH]

Robert-
The referee is telling you there are 11 players. Therefore, ther wing are merely dtermining if there are less than 6 on the line. As for the player in "no-mans land," Yes, the wings will determine if the formation is legal. So, I think perhaps you may have answered your own question?

Jason-
Just to clarify. For the method I described above to be successful, the R has to hold his signal much longer. It can't be the old quick fist at the umpire and "Move on to other things," Rather, the R just holds his signal longer, sometimes until the snap.
We have found it to be very succsesful. However like you said, whatever works for you is great!
As you likely know, none of them work if a crew member is sluffing off on counting and just signaling.

[Big2Cat]

"The referee is telling you there are 11 players. Therefore, ther wing are merely dtermining if there are less than 6 on the line. As for the player in "no-mans land," Yes, the wings will determine if the formation is legal. So, I think perhaps you may have answered your own question? "



This doesn't matter much anymore in college since the rule was re-written that there be no more than 4 in the back field. So, 6 on the line is no longer a foul if a team only has 10 players. With that being the case, I can't even see a reason for the Umpire to keep his signal up for the wings. Confirm 11 (or less) with the R and you are good to go.

[a4caster]

Just another thought...if you use the "counting your side" technique, if you have your standard three on the line, take a QUICK look into the backfield and make sure there are four players. Just a double check for 11 O players. I can get through my pre-snap procedure so quickly I am looking for something else to do. Multitasking, per se. But one additional point: if you are unbalanced and have quads on one side, once again, you can do a double check for 11. Just helping out those in the middle a little bit.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Thankfully we us NCAA rules and counting line players is no longer required. But last year we counted the players on our side of the snapper.

If I had 3 players I would touch the bill of my cap. If both wings gave the same signal all was good.

If I had 4 players on my side of the snapper I would place my hand on my cheek.

If I only had 2 players I would just hold up 2 fingers.

So basically, both wings would add the numbers up and both would have a flag. I only work R now, but when I worked on the wing I had my own responsibilities and waiting to see the R or U signal they had 11 to me away from my area. Also I am at the huddle counting and myself and the U signal pretty quickly so that we can move on to other things so it would be possible that the wings would miss the signal.

This is just the way we did it and whatever works best for you is great.

Just curious, why do you need to have separate signals for 2 or 4 in an unbalanced line? I have found it to be sufficient to use the same signal. I cannot think of a situation where it would be confusing. As long as one official knows if the line is light, you are good.

I have never used the mechanic of counting the men in the backfield as the primary determination of legal formation. For NF, it removes one of your checks in that if the wing officials miss the R (or U) signal for Team A being light, you could miss an illegal formation. It requires R to hold the signal for 10 or less until the ball is snapped (or acknowledging with 3 officials).

I personally prefer counting from the center out as my primary responsibility (after counting Team B). I still usually count the backfield as a check for myself, but only after I count the line.

[a4caster]

We use the same mechs as JasonTx, except when we have 2, we touch the cheek (two, tooth) and four is on the chest. Tip of the cap for three, or salute. The reasoning between the two signals is if I have unbalanced, say two, then he better have four or else, here comes the flags. If we both flash two, then we only have five on the line, and they are illegal.
We also punch off the nearest receiver, i.e. outstretched fist towards backfield parallel to sideline for "off the line", usually no signal for on. I might stretch the arm lining the player up, but then drop it once he is satisfied.

[Texas Aggie]

The mechanic of having the LJ fully count ANY players -- offense or defense -- is screwed up because of his inability to often see players who are covered up.

What we do on my crew is that I (R) and the U have basically 2 signals with an outstretched hand that my wings know to look for. Closed fist = 11 players. Wings just verify no more than 4 in the backfield, which should be easy enough. Open fist = 10 or fewer players (and we leave this signal open until the snap), so no more than 3 in the backfield, and we are good. 4 = both wings flag. If there are more than 11, we have a foul. I tell my BJ to be responsible for the defense.

If the wings look at me or the umpire and don't see a signal, unless its real early in huddle/play, we have 11. I'll hold the 10 or fewer signal until the snap. I think after you've worked a while, its pretty easy to tell whether there are more than 11 on a glance, and you just verify it. Incidentally, when I count, its "4-4-3" or sometimes the formation will dictate that I count "3-3-3-2." Its important that everyone learn to count in multiples, as counting from 1 to 11 is very time consuming, even for the fastest guy. Group counting takes literally 2 seconds.

I work wing on my crew, and both wings have always counted, and signaled to each other, with a hand on cheek meaning 2 (or 1 in 8-man) on our side, touch the bill of the cap for 3 (or 2 in 8-man), and tap our head (like shot clock violation in basketball) for 4 (or 3 in 8-man). If I touch my cheek and see my other wing tapping his head, all is good. If we both touch the bill of our caps, all is good. We also signal if our last is off the line at the same time.

As HL, I always have the flag if the math doesn't add up. If I throw the flag, and if our U has information otherwise, we'll wave it off. It's worked great, last fall, I think I may have flagged this about a dozen times (mind you, we get some screwy lines in 8-man ball too), and only waved off one because we had a sub on the other wing who screwed me up.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

The mechanic of having the LJ fully count ANY players -- offense or defense -- is screwed up because of his inability to often see players who are covered up.

What we do on my crew is that I (R) and the U have basically 2 signals with an outstretched hand that my wings know to look for. Closed fist = 11 players. Wings just verify no more than 4 in the backfield, which should be easy enough. Open fist = 10 or fewer players (and we leave this signal open until the snap), so no more than 3 in the backfield, and we are good. 4 = both wings flag. If there are more than 11, we have a foul. I tell my BJ to be responsible for the defense.

If the wings look at me or the umpire and don't see a signal, unless its real early in huddle/play, we have 11. I'll hold the 10 or fewer signal until the snap. I think after you've worked a while, its pretty easy to tell whether there are more than 11 on a glance, and you just verify it. Incidentally, when I count, its "4-4-3" or sometimes the formation will dictate that I count "3-3-3-2." Its important that everyone learn to count in multiples, as counting from 1 to 11 is very time consuming, even for the fastest guy. Group counting takes literally 2 seconds.

What is an "Open Fist"? Open Hand maybe?
Isn't an "open fist" easily confused with "Military Intelligence?"

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by KWH

What is an "Open Fist"? Open Hand maybe?
Isn't an "open fist" easily confused with "Military Intelligence?"

He is an Aggie, so give him a little leeway.

When I am refereeing, I also give an open hand for 10 man and a fist for 11. I maintain this signal while my U just holds up until we acknowledge each other.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

He is an Aggie, so give him a little leeway.

When I am refereeing, I also give an open hand for 10 man and a fist for 11. I maintain this signal while my U just holds up until we acknowledge each other.

We thumb down 10 or fewer. 12 gets a recount and a flag.