7 players on the LOS

[ChickenOfNC]

What are the opinions of the board about the various methods of counting 7 on the line?

Our association has always done the "4 and 2" method. However, we're switching to counting the backfield this year and signaling less than 5 in the backfield with a fist toward the offense.

While I don't think 4 and 2 is perfect, I just don't feel comfortable with the counting the backfield method. Seems to add unnecessary variables into the equation, as well as pulling my focus away from the LOS - where it should be - into the offensive backfield.

It just seems to me that to ascertain the status of A, I should look at A. Not look at B to figure out what's going on with A.

Thoughts?

[jaybird]

I agree with your thinking. The focus of the LOS officials should be on the LOS. We have the H and L count the number of players on the line on their side of the snapper and signal to each other. If the total is less than 7, we try to count again, then once the snap takes place, both officials will have a flag.

[KWH]

I don't know what you mean by the 4 and 2 method.

However,

Our method is the Referee signals (bent arm with a fist) indicating he has 11 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 4 in the backfield.
Or, if the Referee signals (10 fingers at waist level) indicating he has 10 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 3 in the backfield.

[bisonlj]

Let me preface this by saying I was taught to count the backfield once I have a signal that we have 11 players. It's what I got used to and also makes the most sense to me.

First, you have the QB. Then it's just a quick count of guys in the backfield to make sure you don't have more than 3. I like this method because they are usually more in the open while it's hard for me to sometimes tell if I have 2 or 3 guys on my side of the line because a big tackle can hide a guard and sometimes you just see a mass of bodies at this point.

Besides, I can get to 4 faster than 7.

I'm sure it can be done by counting 7 on the line rather than 4 in the backfield but I'm used to what I've been taught. Every good official I've talked to at all levels says they count the backfield as well. From what I understand counting line (and signalling balance, unbalanced, etc.) are very old mechanics that some people haven't changed. Not sure if that's true but that's what I've been taught.

[Mike L]

We are pretty much like KWH. In addition, the wings will "punch back" if the widest player toward him is in the back field. And one finger up if there is only one running back.

Does it mean I have to get the count/signal early for them (like as the huddle breaks)? Yep.
Does it mean they may have to quickly decide at times if the formation is legal? Yep.
Is that why we make the big bucks? Yep.

Personally, I'd like to go to the new NCAA version of you only care if they have more than 4 in the backfield. Because, does A really gain an advantage by having 4 backs with only 10 guys on the field?

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by KWH

I don't know what you mean by the 4 and 2 method.

However,

Our method is the Referee signals (bent arm with a fist) indicating he has 11 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 4 in the backfield.
Or, if the Referee signals (10 fingers at waist level) indicating he has 10 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 3 in the backfield.

4 and 2 = Not counting the center, if I only have two players on the LOS on my side of the center I will flash "2" above my head to the opposite wing. He should flash "4" back to me. If not, we should have flags. If the line is balanced with 3 on each side of the snapper, there is no signal.

[Ed Hickland]

I spent many years as an LJ being frustrated with trying to count players on the LOS. Sometimes you miss a player because the guy next to him is bigger and/or taller or players are positioned such that seeing everyone is difficult. First thing I did when I became an R was tell the wings they did not have to count players on the LOS.

Reason is U has to count five players numbered 50-79, so, why not complete the 11 count. The R is in the offensive backfield and can easily count 11. So, we depend on the R & U having the 11 count. The wings indicate whether the last player is on or off. The R counts players in the backfield depending on the wings to indicate whether the last an is on or off.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

4 and 2 = Not counting the center, if I only have two players on the LOS on my side of the center I will flash "2" above my head to the opposite wing. He should flash "4" back to me. If not, we should have flags. If the line is balanced with 3 on each side of the snapper, there is no signal.

While I have never tried the 4 and 2 method, I believe I can safely say you may find our method to work a little crisper as, all the wings need do is look at the signal by the White hat and, then, count the Offensive backfield. It is really bang bang and pretty fool proof.
So, to recap our method. The R and U count the offense. R and U signal each other with a bent arm and a fist. (I as a Referee, will hold the signal up until darn near the snap.) The wings note the signal, and count the backfield. Prior to all this the H, L, & B count the defense and signal each other, Typically, they will signal each other right after the offense breaks the huddle.
I can tell you it sure as heck took longer to type this than it takes to do on the field.

[Robert Goodman]

The trouble with counting players in the backfield is that it's possible to be neither on the line nor in the backfield. I suppose the comeback to that is that because you're looking for players in such a position anyway (on the finding of which the formation is illegal regardless), you count the backs only if there's nobody in such a position. Is that in fact your answer?

Robert in the Bronx

[JasonTX]

Thankfully we us NCAA rules and counting line players is no longer required. But last year we counted the players on our side of the snapper.

If I had 3 players I would touch the bill of my cap. If both wings gave the same signal all was good.

If I had 4 players on my side of the snapper I would place my hand on my cheek.

If I only had 2 players I would just hold up 2 fingers.

So basically, both wings would add the numbers up and both would have a flag. I only work R now, but when I worked on the wing I had my own responsibilities and waiting to see the R or U signal they had 11 to me away from my area. Also I am at the huddle counting and myself and the U signal pretty quickly so that we can move on to other things so it would be possible that the wings would miss the signal.

This is just the way we did it and whatever works best for you is great.

[KWH]

Robert-
The referee is telling you there are 11 players. Therefore, ther wing are merely dtermining if there are less than 6 on the line. As for the player in "no-mans land," Yes, the wings will determine if the formation is legal. So, I think perhaps you may have answered your own question?

Jason-
Just to clarify. For the method I described above to be successful, the R has to hold his signal much longer. It can't be the old quick fist at the umpire and "Move on to other things," Rather, the R just holds his signal longer, sometimes until the snap.
We have found it to be very succsesful. However like you said, whatever works for you is great!
As you likely know, none of them work if a crew member is sluffing off on counting and just signaling.

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Thankfully we us NCAA rules and counting line players is no longer required. But last year we counted the players on our side of the snapper.

If I had 3 players I would touch the bill of my cap. If both wings gave the same signal all was good.

If I had 4 players on my side of the snapper I would place my hand on my cheek.

If I only had 2 players I would just hold up 2 fingers.

So basically, both wings would add the numbers up and both would have a flag. I only work R now, but when I worked on the wing I had my own responsibilities and waiting to see the R or U signal they had 11 to me away from my area. Also I am at the huddle counting and myself and the U signal pretty quickly so that we can move on to other things so it would be possible that the wings would miss the signal.

This is just the way we did it and whatever works best for you is great.

Just curious, why do you need to have separate signals for 2 or 4 in an unbalanced line? I have found it to be sufficient to use the same signal. I cannot think of a situation where it would be confusing. As long as one official knows if the line is light, you are good.

I have never used the mechanic of counting the men in the backfield as the primary determination of legal formation. For NF, it removes one of your checks in that if the wing officials miss the R (or U) signal for Team A being light, you could miss an illegal formation. It requires R to hold the signal for 10 or less until the ball is snapped (or acknowledging with 3 officials).

I personally prefer counting from the center out as my primary responsibility (after counting Team B). I still usually count the backfield as a check for myself, but only after I count the line.

[a4caster]

We use the same mechs as JasonTx, except when we have 2, we touch the cheek (two, tooth) and four is on the chest. Tip of the cap for three, or salute. The reasoning between the two signals is if I have unbalanced, say two, then he better have four or else, here comes the flags. If we both flash two, then we only have five on the line, and they are illegal.
We also punch off the nearest receiver, i.e. outstretched fist towards backfield parallel to sideline for "off the line", usually no signal for on. I might stretch the arm lining the player up, but then drop it once he is satisfied.

[Texas Aggie]

The mechanic of having the LJ fully count ANY players -- offense or defense -- is screwed up because of his inability to often see players who are covered up.

What we do on my crew is that I (R) and the U have basically 2 signals with an outstretched hand that my wings know to look for. Closed fist = 11 players. Wings just verify no more than 4 in the backfield, which should be easy enough. Open fist = 10 or fewer players (and we leave this signal open until the snap), so no more than 3 in the backfield, and we are good. 4 = both wings flag. If there are more than 11, we have a foul. I tell my BJ to be responsible for the defense.

If the wings look at me or the umpire and don't see a signal, unless its real early in huddle/play, we have 11. I'll hold the 10 or fewer signal until the snap. I think after you've worked a while, its pretty easy to tell whether there are more than 11 on a glance, and you just verify it. Incidentally, when I count, its "4-4-3" or sometimes the formation will dictate that I count "3-3-3-2." Its important that everyone learn to count in multiples, as counting from 1 to 11 is very time consuming, even for the fastest guy. Group counting takes literally 2 seconds.

I work wing on my crew, and both wings have always counted, and signaled to each other, with a hand on cheek meaning 2 (or 1 in 8-man) on our side, touch the bill of the cap for 3 (or 2 in 8-man), and tap our head (like shot clock violation in basketball) for 4 (or 3 in 8-man). If I touch my cheek and see my other wing tapping his head, all is good. If we both touch the bill of our caps, all is good. We also signal if our last is off the line at the same time.

As HL, I always have the flag if the math doesn't add up. If I throw the flag, and if our U has information otherwise, we'll wave it off. It's worked great, last fall, I think I may have flagged this about a dozen times (mind you, we get some screwy lines in 8-man ball too), and only waved off one because we had a sub on the other wing who screwed me up.