4 players

mj · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 02:26pm

Team A returns from a timeout with only 4 players on the court. Is this an automatic technical or may Team A call a timeout to get the 5th player in or can they wait for the next dead ball to substitute in.

I know 10-1-9 says that all players return at approximately the same time. It just doesn't say "all 5 players" return....

Thanks,
MJ

Larks · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mj
Team A returns from a timeout with only 4 players on the court. Is this an automatic technical or may Team A call a timeout to get the 5th player in or can they wait for the next dead ball to substitute in.

I know 10-1-9 says that all players return at approximately the same time. It just doesn't say "all 5 players" return....

Thanks,
MJ

Game management stuff.

Shouldnt we hold on to the ball and "help" Team A get someone out there?

Bart Tyson · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 02:34pm

Its a "T" when you recognize it.

Larks · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Its a "T" when you recognize it.

Bart, by the book you are right....But...doesnt this mostly happen due to confusion coming out of a huddle. 31 for example thinks s/he is out of the game and returns to the bench rather than to the floor.

A little "uh coach...one more please" almost ALWAYS fixes this real quick.

Sure there are situations where this could warrant a T but I bet you a hot fudge sundae that this is just confusion more often than not. In my opinion, a T here just tosses gas on the fire.

Larks

Bart Tyson · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 02:45pm

Let me clairify. I'm assuming the Time out is over and we have a live ball on the court. Its not a T untill we in bound the ball for live action.

Larks · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 03:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Let me clairify. I'm assuming the Time out is over and we have a live ball on the court. Its not a T untill we in bound the ball for live action.

Now that I reread that, his question does kinda sound like live ball.

I would say that if a coach gets his time out granted before I realize they have 4, I give him the TO. Of course back to game management....I'm also trying to make sure we have 10 during the obvious times to check (TO, New Qtr, Mega Subs etc)

Larks

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks
[/B]

Sure there are situations where this could warrant a T but I bet you a hot fudge sundae that this is just confusion more often than not.
[/B][/QUOTE]A hot fudge sundae?

Sigh,the training continues!

firedoc · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 03:38pm

This brings us to the notion that the officials should count the players on the court after every timeout or intermission to make sure that there are 5 players per team before putting the ball in play. Also, it is good practice by the officials to make sure that during substitutions 1 player enters the court for every player who leaves.

fletch_irwin_m · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 06:14pm

I had this exact same situation last night, but only completely opposite. =)
Massive subs after an OB. I have my hand up counting players in trail, lead has ball on BL. I count six for Visitors. The V's set up in a 2-2-2 press. I keep my hand up and my partner does NOT put the ball in play but keeps looking at me. After about 10 seconds the crowd starts yelling "Put the ball in play, let's get the game going" (Yes in unision they chant this LOL) about 10 seconds later, hand still up, ball still not in play, they start screaming (including the coach) for a "T" because the Visitors have 6 players on the court. About 10 seconds later, the player who was supposed to sub out, realizes that his team is screaming at him to leave.
Avoiding giving the "T" and had a good laugh at it.

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
I had this exact same situation last night, but only completely opposite. =)
Massive subs after an OB. I have my hand up counting players in trail, lead has ball on BL. I count six for Visitors. The V's set up in a 2-2-2 press. I keep my hand up and my partner does NOT put the ball in play but keeps looking at me.

Nice work, fletch!

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 06:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Its a "T" when you recognize it.

No, it's not. If the 5th player never returns to the floor, it is not a technical foul.

We've had numerous discussions on this before. The team playing with 4 hasn't gained any advantage. In fact, they're at a disadvantage. Allow them to bring the player into the game at the next opportunity.

The rule mj cited is meant to prevent a player from staying on the sideline and gaining an advantage when entering the court. It's not intended to punish the knucklehead who doesn't realize he should still be on the floor.

PAULK1 · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 06:31pm

in the case book 10.1.9 the T is not given until the 5th
player entered the court during the play. If you let them begin play with 4 they can continue to play with four until
they can legally "sub" in the 5th player. As was stated before this is a preventable situation.

Bart Tyson · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 07:10pm

BktBallRef, lets talk about this, Not entering at aproximately the same time. Going by what you say, Situation- Team A, 4 players enter the game after a TO. Ball in play, officials notice and don't call anything, YET. Now, Dead ball, Team A's 5th player at table to enter the game, OK, come on in, BOOM, "T" for not entering at aproximately the same time. Is this the procedure?

rainmaker · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 08:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
BktBallRef, lets talk about this, Not entering at aproximately the same time. Going by what you say, Situation- Team A, 4 players enter the game after a TO. Ball in play, officials notice and don't call anything, YET. Now, Dead ball, Team A's 5th player at table to enter the game, OK, come on in, BOOM, "T" for not entering at aproximately the same time. Is this the procedure?

The T isn't for not entering, it's for entering at an unfair advantage. For instance, sitting on the bench until the teammate gets the ball and then running onto the floor to catch a baseball pass and make an easy uncontested lay-up.
Or running onto the floor to block a fast break. If he enters as a legal substitution at a dead ball, there's no T.

Bart Tyson · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 05, 2003, 08:55pm

Ooops i'm sorry I didn't see the unfair advantage part in the rule. Will you site the rule please? I remember awhile back in the discussion about 6 players on the floor when the official noticed at the time when a FT'er has the ball on the 1st of a two shot FT. No advantage on the first shot, do we also ignore this rule?