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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 10:52am
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HS Boys game: Both teams break from a time out. The officials count players(5 per team) and give thumbs up. A inbounds and scores a basket and low and behold B only has 4 players on the floor even though they do have eligible players on the bench. Apparently one stepped off ( Probably one close to the huddle after T.O.)
B calls T.O. 5 players break huddle after T.O. The phantom fifth player doesn't report. A T is issued for the infraction.
Question: When it is discovered that a team does not have 5 players on the floor when they do have 5 eligible legal players what do you do?
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by MOFFICIAL
HS Boys game: Both teams break from a time out. The officials count players(5 per team) and give thumbs up. A inbounds and scores a basket and low and behold B only has 4 players on the floor even though they do have eligible players on the bench. Apparently one stepped off ( Probably one close to the huddle after T.O.)
B calls T.O. 5 players break huddle after T.O. The phantom fifth player doesn't report. A T is issued for the infraction.
Question: When it is discovered that a team does not have 5 players on the floor when they do have 5 eligible legal players what do you do?
Case 10.1.9 Ruling: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team... for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or imtermission.

Charge it to team-foul count
Do not charge to player or coach.
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 11:58am
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NHFS Casebook Play 10.1.9 Ruling does not apply to this play. In 10.1.9, only four B players returned to the floor, and after the throw-in by A was completed A2 scored a field goal, during B's throw-in, B5 who had remained on the bench returned to the floor to catch a long throw-in pass by B1. That is why there is a technical foul in 10.1.9.

In the originally posted play B called a timeout to get its fifth player into the game. Nothing illegal about that.
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
NHFS Casebook Play 10.1.9 Ruling does not apply to this play. In 10.1.9, only four B players returned to the floor, and after the throw-in by A was completed A2 scored a field goal, during B's throw-in, B5 who had remained on the bench returned to the floor to catch a long throw-in pass by B1. That is why there is a technical foul in 10.1.9.

In the originally posted play B called a timeout to get its fifth player into the game. Nothing illegal about that.

Interesting interpretation.
But, you are the interpreter.
I am not.
I'm just reffin'.

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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 04:44pm
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Thanks Mick and Mark.
So do I have a nothing or does Team B get a T for not having five on the floor when they have five eligible?
IMHO I have a T for failing to have all players enter court in a timely manner following the T.O

[Edited by MOFFICIAL on Dec 9th, 2001 at 03:50 PM]
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 04:51pm
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Cool

Quote:
Originally posted by MOFFICIAL
Thanks Mick and Mark.
So do I have a nothing or does Team B get a T for not having five on the floor when they have five eligible?
You can "T" 'em, or you can make sure of the count.
I don't mind counting, and I work with partners that don't mind counting.
If we have any doubt about the number of players on the floor, we keep that "Stop sign" up and don't give the "OK point" until we are satisfied that we will not find ourselves in a position where we have to "T" a team for our mistake.
There's few teams that deliberately play with 4 players.
mick
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 07:11pm
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Mick,

I do not why you would charge Team B with a technical foul. What did it do wrong? Carelessness is not a technical foul. That is the only thing that happenend. Team B put themselves at a disadvantage by only returning four players to the court (five against four). Team A inflicted a further peanlty (so to speak) on itself when it took a time-out to get the fifth player into the game.
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Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 07:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Mick,

I do not why you would charge Team B with a technical foul. What did it do wrong? Carelessness is not a technical foul. That is the only thing that happenend. Team B put themselves at a disadvantage by only returning four players to the court (five against four). Team A inflicted a further peanlty (so to speak) on itself when it took a time-out to get the fifth player into the game.
Hmm, interesting choice of words Mark, "Carelessness is not a technical foul."

So, a coach that leaves their box has to do so intentionally to get a T? I don't remember the rules saying that an act has to be intentional to get a technical.

Although, I do agree with your ruling - what advantage has B gained by only fielding 4 players? No advantage - no call.

[Edited by Oz Referee on Dec 9th, 2001 at 06:34 PM]
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 09:21pm
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Wow mick! You're the first person that MD has ever addressed in the first person!

Personally, I agree with you. You either have a T for failing to have all players return to the floor after a TO or you have a T for leaving the floor for unauthorized reasons. But even if you ignore all that, then B5 has to get a T for failing to report. So, we can play semantics all night long but this play will result in a T, one way or another.
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 09:23pm
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Red face

What the hell???????? Mark T and BktBallRef disagree on something - unbelievable!
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 10:02pm
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Wink

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Wow mick! You're the first person that MD has ever addressed in the first person!

Personally, I agree with you. You either have a T for failing to have all players return to the floor after a TO or you have a T for leaving the floor for unauthorized reasons. But even if you ignore all that, then B5 has to get a T for failing to report. So, we can play semantics all night long but this play will result in a T, one way or another.
Yeah,but what if one ref calls a foul on a B player on A's shot at exactly the same time as the other ref lays a T on B for only having 4 on the floor--is this a false double simultaneous multiple foul?
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 10:07pm
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Talking My newest best friend, JR!

Always trying to start some sh*t, aren't you?
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 10:10pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Yeah,but what if one ref calls a foul on a B player on A's shot at exactly the same time as the other ref lays a T on B for only having 4 on the floor--is this a false double simultaneous multiple foul?
Head . . . exploding . . . get the tarp . . . and not the good tarp
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 10:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Mick,

I do not why you would charge Team B with a technical foul. What did it do wrong? Carelessness is not a technical foul. That is the only thing that happenend. Team B put themselves at a disadvantage by only returning four players to the court (five against four). Team A inflicted a further peanlty (so to speak) on itself when it took a time-out to get the fifth player into the game.
Mark,
I will not "T" for this, for it will not happen to me.
I will count to five until I get it right.
I practice counting to five. It seems like I do that 50 times a game.
mick
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Old Sun Dec 09, 2001, 11:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Wow mick! You're the first person that MD has ever addressed in the first person!

Personally, I agree with you. You either have a T for failing to have all players return to the floor after a TO or you have a T for leaving the floor for unauthorized reasons. But even if you ignore all that, then B5 has to get a T for failing to report. So, we can play semantics all night long but this play will result in a T, one way or another.

Three reasons have been given for charging a technical foul in the posted play.

1) NFHS R10-S1-A9: A team shall not: Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission; and Casebook 10.1.9 Situation: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure in being used, once the team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time. COMMENT: The resuming-play procedure is in effect to start the second half unless either team is not on the court. In that case regular delay provisions are in force.

R10-S1-A9 is meant for deceptive actions by Team B. When B5 remained on his team's bench in the posted play, was he attempting to deceive Team A? B5 made no attempt to return to the playing court. The fact that B5 made not attempt to return to the playing court does not fit the Situation 10.1.9. In fact Team B called a timeout to create a situation so the B5 could legally enter the game as a substitute.

2) NFHS R10-S3-A4: A player shall not leave the court for an unauthorized reason or delay returning after legally our of bounds; and Casebook Play 10.3.4 Situation C: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

Not withstanding the thirty-second timeout requirement of remaining standing, B5 did not leave the court for an unauthorized reason and did not enter the court after the play resumed. Team B called a timeout to create a situation so the B5 could legally enter the game as a substitute.

3) This reason combines (2) with NFHS R10-S2: A substitute shall not enter the court: A1: Without reporting to the scorers. A2: Without being beckoned by an official, except between quaters; and Casebook Plays 10.2.1 Situation A: Substitute A1 enters the court without reporting to the scorers. The infraction is discovered: (a) before the ball becomes live; or (b) after the ball becomes live. RULING: In (a), a technicals foul is charged to A1. In (b), it is too late to penalize A1; 10.2.1 Situation B: Team A substitute No. 24: (a) reorts to the scorer, but enters the court without being beckoned; or (b) goes directly from the bench and onto the court without being beckoned. RULING: One technical foul is charged to No. 24 in (a) and (b). In (b), even though No. 24 failed to comply with both requirements, only one foul is charged; and 10.2.2 Situation: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

(3) is the situation which the officials should be concerned. How to get B5 back into the game after the timeout was called when Team B realized it only had four players on the court. If the officials were aware that Team B had only four players on the court prior to the timeout, they should have made it known to Coach B that B5 had to report back to the scorer before the tiemout's warning signal.

In the posted play it should have been obvious to the officials that the timeout by Team B was to get B5 back into the game. At this point preventive officiating has to kick in. There really should never be a technical foul for this type of play; once the timeout was called the officials should be telling Coach B to have B5 report into the scorer.
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