substitution vs participation

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

This thread has got to be one of the longest pi**ing contests I've ever seen. Seriously everyone, isn't it time to move on?

For sure. 12 pages arguing with a youth coach. I guess it never occurred to him to teach his kids that s*** happens, life deals you some curveballs, and it's how you react to it that counts. Whatever happened to the high road?

[mikesears]

Please moderator.... for the love of all that is holy....... lock this thread. 12 pages of crap.

[MNBlue]

I wasted a boatload of time reading this thread and I was thinking the entire time, "Several years ago, before we were instructed to have a dead ball IS foul if the player being substituted for didn't leave in a timely manner, we didn't do anything if there were 12 on the field. We counted A & B; if A was short, we made sure we had 7 on the line; if either was over, we waited to see what happened. If the extra player(s) left, we had nothing; if they tried to get off the field but didn't, we had IS; if they stayed and participated, we had IP.

Now, we do things differently.

I was wondering if the official in question, almost 200 posts ago, was officiating with the older interpretation in mind? It's possible, knowing the types (pre-judging) of officials that end up working youth football games. Maybe he was as out of date with what he was suppose to do as the original poster was misunderstanding the IS/IP differences?

Obviously, mistakes happen. It's how we deal with mistakes that define us as coaches/officials/players.

As far as youngump is concerned, there is a reason that football has the difference in distance for the penalties, and that they don't transfer to BB or BB or SB.

If we observe the 12 on the field with no one immediately leaving, we don't have an "injury risk" due to the extra player. We observe and penalize without allowing the ball to be put into play. Once the ball is in play AND we didn't observe the extra player AND he participates, by Football Fundamental, we can't stop the play. Now, we have an "injury risk", because we are playing 12 against 11. That is why the penalty is greater before the ball is alive verses after the ball is alive.

In BB and BB and SB, the officials determine when the ball is alive. We hold up play until we and the players are ready. In football, it is the responsiblity of the teams to field the correct number of players and for the officials to count them. Sometimes we make mistakes counting - most times we don't. But a major differnence is that in football, the offense determines when the ball becomes alive. So, the officials have less control about delaying if there are extra players on the field/court.

Sorry to drag this never ending thread on even longer.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I was wondering if the official in question, almost 200 posts ago, was officiating with the older interpretation in mind? It's possible, knowing the types (pre-judging) of officials that end up working youth football games. Maybe he was as out of date with what he was suppose to do as the original poster was misunderstanding the IS/IP differences?

Reads as reasonable to me. Considering how slowly many youth players wake up to being subbed for, then even if the league was supposedly following Fed rules, some of the officials may have a mental reservation about enforcing "immediate" substitution with children, else they'd have IS violations galore, and was enforcing only IP in such cases. If hawkishowl's teams were better at executing substitution than other teams in their league, he may not have realized officials were allowing extra players to leave up until the moment the ball was put in play. Just a guess.

Robert

[hawkishowl20]

The last two posts make a lot of sense. Had they been the first two responses this thread would be one page.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The last two posts make a lot of sense. Had they been the first two responses this thread would be one page.

The fact is after nearly 200 posts you found a couple that conditionally agree with you and you find these to be sensible? Someone mentioned it earlier, you were not interested in what anyone had to say until it agreed with your opinion.

[PA-28-181]

This is like having a conversation with my brother who is a lawyer. Ever when he knows his argument is wrong he tries to get me to change my mind. Talking with him is a waste of time and energy. This whole thread is much the same. Of the 150 or so people that tell him he was wrong & how it was ruled is correct, he still looks for the few that agree with his argument.

Originally Posted by waltjp

The fact is after nearly 200 posts you found a couple that conditionally agree with you and you find these to be sensible? Someone mentioned it earlier, you were not interested in what anyone had to say until it agreed with your opinion.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by PA-28-181

This is like having a conversation with my brother who is a lawyer. Ever when he knows his argument is wrong he tries to get me to change my mind. Talking with him is a waste of time and energy. This whole thread is much the same. Of the 150 or so people that tell him he was wrong & how it was ruled is correct, he still looks for the few that agree with his argument.

He probably has a lot of fun with you. You (probably) often have no idea what you’re talking about and have no ability to explain or defend your position. “I’m right, this is right, isn’t a discussion.” Lacking the ability to speak and think logically is a major deficiency. Perhaps you will overcome it one day.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by waltjp

The fact is after nearly 200 posts you found a couple that conditionally agree with you and you find these to be sensible? Someone mentioned it earlier, you were not interested in what anyone had to say until it agreed with your opinion.

I’m glad your newly found psychic abilities have given you the ability to contribute something. Stop acting holier than thou.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I’m glad your newly found psychic abilities have given you the ability to contribute something. Stop acting holier than thou.

Sorry, Hawk. When I see something that looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm calling it a duck.