substitution vs participation

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

[Sonofanump]

Was this 4 man or 5 man? Maybe you should have informed the official before the play started that you had 12 guys on the field so they could have stopped the play to give you a 5 yarder.

[HLin NC]

Agree with Rut, our philosophy is to try and shut it down and give the 5 instead of the 15. Its not always possible, you get hung up in mid-count, have to recount, snap gets off, then its too bad, so sad- 15 if he doesn't get off the field, 5 LBF if he does eventually find his sideline.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

Rule 9.6.4c - It is illegal participation...To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick.

I don't understand your continued refusal to accept what everyone says here but it doesn't surprise me at all. The bottom line is, if the official recognized the problem before the snap and flags it, you get a dead ball illegal sub foul. If he doesn't, you get a live ball illegal part foul and no amount of sideline lawyering is going to change it to a dead ball foul. Time to live with it and move on.

editted to add....why is it always us bad officials are "taking it out on the players" when we are simply enforcing the penalties required due to player/coach actions?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Rule 9.6.4c - It is illegal participation...To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick.

I don't understand your continued refusal to accept what everyone says here but it doesn't surprise me at all. The bottom line is, if the official recognized the problem before the snap and flags it, you get a dead ball illegal sub foul. If he doesn't, you get a live ball illegal part foul and no amount of sideline lawyering is going to change it to a dead ball foul. Time to live with it and move on.

Well you can have a live ball substitution foul and the NF does address this specifically. Once the ball is live, you have to determine when what that player did during the play. There action will determine the foul. If you can catch it before the play comes off, that is the best thing to do. Also if players do not leave immediately after being subbed for, then that can cause the play to shut down.

Peace

[Mike L]

I'm trying to stick to the OP rather than the myriad of possible other situations this particular instance could bring up.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I'm curious as to how you know when the official realized there were 12 on the field. You are assuming that he knew before the snap based on what evidence??? Maybe he realized it as the play was happening and he saw two corners standing out there side-by-side and thought "That doesn't look right."

What exactly makes you think he knew, didn't kill it, and chose to let it go live vs. he didn't know until it was live???

1)The hand on the flag well before the snap and waiting to throw it immediately as the ball was snapped was a tip off.
2)People yelling “get off the field” to the player substituted close to but well before the snap probably gave him a chance to figure out what was going on.
3)The substitution happened during a timeout and the opposing team was slow to return to the field which was a lot of time to do the required count.
4)When I stated correctly rules that contradicted his call, instead of trying to clarify the discrepancy he tried to pick a fight with me, which generally weakens any defense of him.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I'm trying to stick to the OP rather than the myriad of possible other situations this particular instance could bring up.

I get that, but it must be made clear that the rules allow for a live ball substitution infraction. There are people that will read this on only think there is one option or the other.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

1)The hand on the flag well before the snap and waiting to throw it immediately as the ball was snapped was a tip off.
2)People yelling “get off the field” to the player substituted close to but well before the snap probably gave him a chance to figure out what was going on.
3)The substitution happened during a timeout and the opposing team was slow to return to the field which was a lot of time to do the required count.
4)When I stated correctly rules that contradicted his call, instead of trying to clarify the discrepancy he tried to pick a fight with me, which generally weakens any defense of him.

I think you're a howler monkey.

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

2)People yelling “get off the field” to the player substituted close to but well before the snap probably gave him a chance to figure out what was going on.

Or the astute coach could have indicated he wanted a time out.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Patton

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

So if you're an official as well, why did you treat the fraternity with disrespect?

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

Or the astute coach could have indicated he wanted a time out.

I didn't want a time out and I didn't mind the penalty. The missaplication or ignoring of rules generaly diminishes "fun" and "fair play." Those things I teach my team.

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

Is that what you were doing when you initially refered to him as an "idiot"? You were the one that was incorrect on the rule, not him.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So if you're an official as well, why did you treat the fraternity with disrespect?

When? maybe if you picture me screaming and throwing things I was disrespectful. However, I was not doing so. I can ask for clarification or an explanation. I can state rules. I was given no explanation and told to check a rule book before opening my mouth (screaming and pointing). I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.