[MNBlue]

I wasted a boatload of time reading this thread and I was thinking the entire time, "Several years ago, before we were instructed to have a dead ball IS foul if the player being substituted for didn't leave in a timely manner, we didn't do anything if there were 12 on the field. We counted A & B; if A was short, we made sure we had 7 on the line; if either was over, we waited to see what happened. If the extra player(s) left, we had nothing; if they tried to get off the field but didn't, we had IS; if they stayed and participated, we had IP.

Now, we do things differently.

I was wondering if the official in question, almost 200 posts ago, was officiating with the older interpretation in mind? It's possible, knowing the types (pre-judging) of officials that end up working youth football games. Maybe he was as out of date with what he was suppose to do as the original poster was misunderstanding the IS/IP differences?

Obviously, mistakes happen. It's how we deal with mistakes that define us as coaches/officials/players.

As far as youngump is concerned, there is a reason that football has the difference in distance for the penalties, and that they don't transfer to BB or BB or SB.

If we observe the 12 on the field with no one immediately leaving, we don't have an "injury risk" due to the extra player. We observe and penalize without allowing the ball to be put into play. Once the ball is in play AND we didn't observe the extra player AND he participates, by Football Fundamental, we can't stop the play. Now, we have an "injury risk", because we are playing 12 against 11. That is why the penalty is greater before the ball is alive verses after the ball is alive.

In BB and BB and SB, the officials determine when the ball is alive. We hold up play until we and the players are ready. In football, it is the responsiblity of the teams to field the correct number of players and for the officials to count them. Sometimes we make mistakes counting - most times we don't. But a major differnence is that in football, the offense determines when the ball becomes alive. So, the officials have less control about delaying if there are extra players on the field/court.

Sorry to drag this never ending thread on even longer.