substitution vs participation

[FTVMartin]

This really is kind of simple. It all boils down to when the official discovered 12. before the snap, kill and get the 5 yarder. after the snap, 15 for IP.

BTW - the OP said nothing about the player trying to leave the field. Coach - If you don't want to take the chance of getting a 15 yarder, call timeout. If you don't, you are leaving it up to us as to when we discover 12 guys on the field. As has been pointed out, sometimes we just don't get it quick enough but it's not our fault. You had too many guys on the field. We just call it.

[JugglingReferee]

hawkishowl20,

Nobody welcome'd you to our forum.

So, welcome. Please do stay around here and contribute.

[Ref inSoCA]

Offense cannot break w/<11

Don't throw that in. That is NOT an NF rule.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Ref inSoCA

Offense cannot break w/<11

Don't throw that in. That is NOT an NF rule.

In math terms:

< means 'less than'

I see no rule stating that the offense cannot break a huddle with less than 11 players.

[mikesears]

I wonder if maybe the officials were using some NCAA conferences' philosophy of not calling a foul on the defense until after the snap beause the defense can call a timeout to correct the foul. If so, the officials were incorrect to do so. From the description (and we only got one side of the story here), it sounds like nobody involved handled this very well.

[wisref2]

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by wisref2

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)

So I don't work the oblongated ball, but I do follow a bunch of your discussions from where I belong on the forum... mind if I ask a question that's bothering me in this discussion?

So, B1 illegally enters the field. That broke a rule. The official notices this either a) just as the ball is snapped or b) just before the ball is snapped or c) well before the ball is snapped. In this discussion c is a 5 yard dead ball foul. a or b are 15 yard live ball fouls.

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

There are a couple of close ones that are about preventative officiating but they all seem to involve when we notice relative to what the illegal player did.

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.
________
Club Royal Condos Wong Amat

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.

Not a football official - just a coach, but I fail to see how this is the official's error. If I can't get my personnel on and off the field when I need to, that's on me and my coaching staff and we need to do a better job.

As far as the difference in the penalties (again, this is not a rules interp, just a point of view from the sideline), having 12 players participate in the play can be extremely dangerous. You've got an extra body out there who won't be blocked and can get a nasty shot at the player with the ball because of that. It should be a harsher penalty.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I don't work the oblongated ball, but I do follow a bunch of your discussions from where I belong on the forum... mind if I ask a question that's bothering me in this discussion?

So, B1 illegally enters the field. That broke a rule. The official notices this either a) just as the ball is snapped or b) just before the ball is snapped or c) well before the ball is snapped. In this discussion c is a 5 yard dead ball foul. a or b are 15 yard live ball fouls.

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

There are a couple of close ones that are about preventative officiating but they all seem to involve when we notice relative to what the illegal player did.

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.

Youngump asks a great question and the answer is simple you can stop play after it starts and call the dead ball foul. It is not only suggested in the substitution rule it also is the safest thing to do. That’s why participation carries a higher penalty: if you run on after play begins it may be difficult to catch and is dangerous. That’s why substitution is a 5 yard penalty because it occurs outside of play and causes no danger.


*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by wisref2

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)

He clearly doesn't. Even if he did what he was supposed to do after messing up… he still messed up. The “if” is still in question. The only thing that has been established is his mistakes and the unethical nature and consequence of his mistakes.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by youngump

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

A good example would be basketball where before I hand the ball for a throw-in I notice that there is one too many players. I tell the extra player to get off and don't start the play. If I miscount, then the play continues and we could have a technical for too many players participating. Because I noticed the sixth player later means a foul for the team as opposed to none.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

He clearly doesn't. Even if he did what he was supposed to do after messing up… he still messed up. The “if” is still in question. The only thing that has been established is his mistakes and the unethical nature and consequence of his mistakes.

Let's not forget that YOUR mistakes have also been established. YOU didn't get your personnel on and off the field like you should have and YOU were an a$$ to the official just as much as he was an a$$ to you. Whether you like it or not, the flag was thrown for illegal participation and that's 15 yards. Rather than whining about the official, get your act together on the sideline and make sure you never allow the official the chance to make that decision again.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

A good example would be basketball where before I hand the ball for a throw-in I notice that there is one too many players. I tell the extra player to get off and don't start the play. If I miscount, then the play continues and we could have a technical for too many players participating. Because I noticed the sixth player later means a foul for the team as opposed to none.

I thought about that but it's not quite analagous. The reason being that no rule has been broken. Your count is preventative officiating. If I let an illegal bat get into the batters box, I haven't done a good job preventing a problem, but the rule violation occurred at the time the bat came in.
But in this case the rule was already broken. Replaced players must immediately leave the field. If they don't, five yards for illegal substitution. To be analagous it would have to be a delay warning or something if you noticed early and I think that would be a very bad rule.
________
Live sex webshows

[ajmc]

Youngump, allow me to try and answer your question, as you seem honestly interested in an answer. The situation presenting two different penalties is not related to "an officials error" it's related to how, and when, the infraction is discovered.

You might consider that a football game involves more than 22 people often milling about before a play begins. The mechanics designed to deal with this recommends the Referee and Umpire both count the offense team, and confirm their count to each other before each play begins. The wing officials (4 man mechanics) count and confirm the defense.

At the HS level recent rule revision require that all substitutions be completed in a prompt manner which require the replaced player to "immediately" remove himself from the field. Immediately is intentionally left as a flexible term determined by the good judgment and common sense of the field officials. There is no set time for the dead ball period between downs and that interval may differ greatly within a game between teams and situations.

Substitutions occur at any time during the dead ball interval so the time available to count, or recount players varies between plays.

When an official observes more than 11 players in a formation, which would include a replaced player delaying leaving a formation, during the dead ball period that constitutes an illegal substitution (NF: 3.7). That foul would also cover a replaced player leaving a formation who does not manage to exit the field before the play begins, or exits the field improperly.

Illegal participation (NF: 9.6) involves more than 11 people participating in the play.

In general officials try and determine if there is a substitution infraction before EVERY down begins, but because of the conjestion, player movement and time available an exact count is either not completed or completed accurately. The clear objective is to catch any illegal substitution infractions before they develop into illegal participation situations, but that is not always possible.

When the effort fails to uncover the additional personnel on the field, and the player participates in the ensuing play, the proscribed penalty is Illegal Participation, a more severe penalty. The absolute and primary responsibility for having the proper number of players on the field rests entirely on each team.

If possible an official can prevent a team from committing an Illegal participation foul by detecting an illegal substitution situation before the play becomes alive, but if that is not detected, in time, the illegal participation foul prevails.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

In your description of your play, the player makes no attempt to leave the field = 3.7 Comment a. does not apply.