substitution vs participation

[daggo66]

What 3 seconds? There is nothing in the book about 3 seconds, furthermore you are not even reading from the 2008 book! You are now arguing in circles. At first when I read your story I thought the official in question was an arrogant SOB. I've now decided that he is in fact a saint for not ejecting you. I new someone once who was mentally ill. We could have a disagreement and since the other persons point had no validity they would keep changing. Soon I would realize that we weren't even discussing the original topic and were in fact arguing about arguing. That is exactly the case here as well. I am finished with you and I would strongly suggest you seek professional help.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Reference please??

Peace

Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C
Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field…

…The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by daggo66

What 3 seconds? There is nothing in the book about 3 seconds, furthermore you are not even reading from the 2008 book! You are now arguing in circles. At first when I read your story I thought the official in question was an arrogant SOB. I've now decided that he is in fact a saint for not ejecting you. I new someone once who was mentally ill. We could have a disagreement and since the other persons point had no validity they would keep changing. Soon I would realize that we weren't even discussing the original topic and were in fact arguing about arguing. That is exactly the case here as well. I am finished with you and I would strongly suggest you seek professional help.

It looks like it is in the book. If it isn't what is the new definition?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

…The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player.

You obviously misunderstood the question. Where does it say that "3 seconds" defines the term immediately? There is no such reference and that was my point. I did not say that the defense could wait until the snap. When the defense does not huddle you give them a little different expectation when they might be subbing people all over the field. But I admit that is a person philosophy, which is not necessarily supported by rule.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

that is where it says it. that is what it says. I'm not sure what your looking for from me. You think that it doesn't say that?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

that is where it says it. that is what it says. I'm not sure what your looking for from me. You think that it doesn't say that?

You obviously did not read your own rules references. There is no mention of 3 seconds in the NF rules. Now you said you were using NF Rules (or WIAA Rules, whatever that means).

BTW, there is no such thing as a 3-7 Comment. You probably do not even know why. But you are an official right?

I am starting to wonder if you are just a troll.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

I’m looking right at it. You are looking right at it. If it can’t possibly exist I would like to know why and I will discard this book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I’m looking right at it. You are looking right at it. If it can’t possibly exist I would like to know why and I will discard this book.

Can you reference the exact language where it says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately?" Keep looking, because you will not find it.

BTW, there is no 3-7 Comment. There is a 3.7 Comment.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you reference the exact language where it says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately?" Keep looking, because you will not find it.

BTW, there is no 3-7 Comment. There is a 3.7 Comment.

Peace

OK, the following quotation is the reference where the exact language says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C
Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field.

Illegal Participation is a live ball 15 yard foul and occurs once the ball is snapped with more than 11 players on a side. The reason officials try to enforce the illegal substitution is because it is a 5 yard foul rather than the 15 yard foul.

The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW it says Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; [U]*3.7.3[/U] A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C

[JugglingReferee]

I got the 85th post in this thread. Ocho Cinco is my jersey number!

[JRutledge]

I am looking at the casebook and your references (The 2008 National Federation Football Casebook). There is not one comment about "3 seconds" in this book under those references.

And under reference 3.7.1 Situation B, Comment says:

"In a related situation, if the covering official's count of the players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave immediately. However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the subsitutiion has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required (3-7-4; 9-6-4c)

This is not my commenting on the rule, I just quoted it. That sounds a lot like your situation. There is absolutely no reference to “3 seconds” constituting the term “immediately” in making a substitution.

I do not know what rulebook you are actually looking at, but I quoted the actual casebook.

Peace

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I got the 85th post in this thread. Ocho Cinco is my jersey number!

Only counts if you change your name in Florida.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am looking at the casebook and your references (The 2008 National Federation Football Casebook). There is not one comment about "3 seconds" in this book under those references.

And under reference 3.7.1 Situation B, Comment says:

"In a related situation, if the covering official's count of the players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave immediately. However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the subsitutiion has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required (3-7-4; 9-6-4c)

This is not my commenting on the rule, I just quoted it. That sounds a lot like your situation. There is absolutely no reference to “3 seconds” constituting the term “immediately” in making a substitution.

I do not know what rulebook you are actually looking at, but I quoted the actual casebook.

Peace

Thank you for that. I didn't see that in the 08 book. My quotation is from a few years ago I have it on the computer. Does 3 seconds still define immediately? they defined it and never undefined it right?

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Thank you for that. I didn't see that in the 08 book. My quotation is from a few years ago I have it on the computer. Does 3 seconds still define immediately? they defined it and never undefined it right?

Is undefining something akin to 'reestablishing' yourself in bounds in basketball (and since some people have some basic rules issues today, there is no such thing in football).

I'm sure they are lots of phrases, rules, etc. in old rulebooks that have not been 'undefined' yet they are definitely not still in existence.

[waltjp]

Good Grief.