substitution vs participation

[daggo66]

You are obviously having a hard time understanding the rule as it is written and applied. You are reading it and trying to apply it to your own logic. You are correct that there can be a live ball IS. When the extra player is trying to get off the field but can't before the snap, you have a live ball IS. In the instance you describe you had 2 players in the CB position. Your problem is the issue of what participation is. I believe that you think that since he didn't do anything on that play that he didn't participate. Now if you were astute enough to read the definition of participation you would have read that is any act or action that has an influence on the play. Now since coaches speak and understand a different language than the rule book, I'm going to venture a guess that in your opinion he had no influence on the play. Still with me? Ok, now you have to go to the Case Book. The Case Book explains exactly what the rules mean by giving examples. Lo and behold your exact situation is in there! 3.7.1 Situation B: ".....However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more that 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required."

This is purely a penalty related to poor discipline which is a result of poor coaching. As the coach it is your responsibility to substitute correctly. Whether it's 5 or 15 it's all on you. If you were smart you would have at least taken the time out. You thought you would get away with 5 and didn't call time out. When it didn't happen that way, you became upset. End of story. Go back to practice and work on your substitutions and stop trying to look here for validation that this was not simply a case of poor coaching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Jrutledge said
“…it must be made clear that the rules allow for a live ball substitution infraction. There are people that will read this and only think there is one option or the other.”

If that is true, which I think/know it is, that completely undermines the only argument I’ve heard disagreeing with me. The “if I catch it it’s 5 yard mistake if I don’t it’s akin to a personal foul unsportsmanlike penalty” argument is baseless. The intent of both rules would never make this situation happen. No rule making body would structure it this way. What makes it happen is officials using a rule of thumb that is false because they don’t know the rules or messed up and need to figure out what to do somehow.

For your information, it has only been recently that the NF has made this distinction of when you could or would not have a live ball or dead ball foul. And if a player is going off the field and they do not participate, that can be a live ball foul. Usually it does not get that far, because a foul has been committed long before that. The side that is the hardest to evaluate that kind of distinction is the defense. The defense does not huddle as often and they often react to the offensive changes. It is a violation of the substitution rule to not make that substitution immediately, so you will not have many situations where the ball becomes live.

Peace

[trocared]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

Coach...there are some crews who have the philisophy that a defender can leave the field of play before the play begins, therefore will not blow it dead w/more than 11.
Offense cannot break w/<11, or line up <11 bc. it would put defense at a great disadvantage.
next time, as other posts have mentioned, count to ten, and if that doesn't work, count to twenty or thirty, whatever it takes before you explode at an official, it will be well worth it!
cheers,
tro

[hawkishowl20]

I know those interpretations and that practice the only thing your offering is the case book. What book is it what page is that on?

[daggo66]

The offense cannot break the huddle with 12 is a myth. A is in their huddle, A12 enters the huddle and they immediately break the huddle as A11 leaves the field. How is that a penalty?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I know those interpretations and that practice the only thing your offering is the case book. What book is it what page is that on?

I told you the book (Case Book) and the rule. Rule 3.7.1 Situation B. It's on page 27. The case book explains the rule with real life situations. Yours is right there in black and white. I believe this is the part where you either say Mea Culpa or are never heard from again.

[hawkishowl20]

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

This is exactly what happened. Stop pretending you were there and he wasn't trying to get off. Stop pretending the official didn't have the count. Stop trying to make an argument for a conclusion you are predisposed to have “Ref good coach bad” make an honest case. We are looking for better understanding here

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by trocared

Offense cannot break w/<11, or line up <11 bc. it would put defense at a great disadvantage.

This is not true. It is only illegal if a substitution is not done immediately (along with other specific acts). The huddle does not play a role at all. You do not have to take my word for it, read Rule 3-7.

Peace

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

This is exactly what happened. Stop pretending you were there and he wasn't trying to get off. Stop pretending the official didn't have the count. Stop trying to make an argument for a conclusion you are predisposed to have “Ref good coach bad” make an honest case. We are looking for better understanding here

I wasn't there and did not see the play all I have is what you described. You wrote the following: The kid that was in is new and not very sharp so he didn’t understand this and stayed on the field. Being new he also didn’t pick up on someone being in his position promptly. No where in your story did you say he was running off the field and didn't make it off before the snap. So are you now changing the story?

[hawkishowl20]

The participation penalty assumes that the officials are competent and able to count players on the field in under a minute. It takes less than a second to determine any offense (with 5 interior lineman) has 11. That leaves a lot of time for the defense. Under no circumstances should this situation occur. Participation can only be called if the 12th defensive player runs on within 3 seconds of the snap to after the snap. Otherwise it’s on the official to call a substitution penalty. I’m sorry if you feel guilty about this but it’s just the way it is. Take the ignorant blinders off.


*9.6 COMMENT, Page 71: b: If a substitute enters the field during the down, but does not make any contact with an opponent or touch the ball and does not influence the play it is illegal participation and a live-ball foul enforced from the basic spot. (9-6-4a) NOTE: Based on the rules change, officials are strongly encouraged to make certain that the substitute’s entry into the field had some impact on the play and was not incidental to viewing the game or simply being in the bench area.

[daggo66]

Again you have to apply the correct rule. Your player did not enter the field during a down. Next.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by daggo66

I wasn't there and did not see the play all I have is what you described. You wrote the following: The kid that was in is new and not very sharp so he didn’t understand this and stayed on the field. Being new he also didn’t pick up on someone being in his position promptly. No where in your story did you say he was running off the field and didn't make it off before the snap. So are you now changing the story?

I said coaches were yelling to him to get off, and he did attempt to get off that wasn’t extremely clear I understand that. What I was getting at in that quote is he was standing on the field a long time as the time out ended, as the defense huddled, as the offense returned, as they broke the huddle, as the cadence started he was attempting to get off but he had no chance of making it from the far sideline to ours. The substitution penalty should be called if the player he is replacing doesn’t leave within 3 seconds. I understand that might not be easy to monitor but 2 mins is a lot more than 3 seconds.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Again you have to apply the correct rule. Your player did not enter the field during a down. Next.

I know it's not participation it’s an automatic substitution penalty. Your arguing for me now?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

The substitution penalty should be called if the player he is replacing doesn’t leave within 3 seconds. I understand that might not be easy to monitor but 2 mins is a lot more than 3 seconds.

Reference please??

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

So, the new question would be if the official messes up by not counting timely why wouldn't the same penalty apply and why wouldn't he blow the whistle once he finishes counting?