25/40 Play clock

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Oh God no. Never told to repeat a signal or whistle. If you recognized the ball is dead, we could have multiple whistles, but not unless you are clearly ruling it that way. we are not repeating or mirroring such situations. Peace

Didn't mean to apply "mirroring" someone else's signals is appropriate, It's generally not, with the exception of STOPPING play. That 1st whistle ENDS the play EVERYWHERE, right, wrong or indifferent. Secondary whistles simply announce to everyone else that the play HAS BEEN ended (so EVERYONE should stop playing, and hopefully avoid doing something unnecessary, now that the ball has been declared DEAD.)

Inside officials (Umpire, Referee, opposite Wing) repeating TO signals can be extremely helpful in avoiding unnecessary problems with delayed clock stoppages caused by the initial signal not being visible to the clock operator (especially when a wing official may be obscured by the congestion in the Team Box area.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Didn't mean to apply "mirroring" someone else's signals is appropriate, It's generally not, with the exception of STOPPING play. That 1st whistle ENDS the play EVERYWHERE, right, wrong or indifferent. Secondary whistles simply announce to everyone else that the play HAS BEEN ended (so EVERYONE should stop playing, and hopefully avoid doing something unnecessary, now that the ball has been declared DEAD.)

Inside officials (Umpire, Referee, opposite Wing) repeating TO signals can be extremely helpful in avoiding unnecessary problems with delayed clock stoppages caused by the initial signal not being visible to the clock operator (especially when a wing official may be obscured by the congestion in the Team Box area.)

As a clock operator for college, I can say that having multiple officials stopping the clock can help -- especially when the play ends near one sideline (so I am watching that official to see if the play ended in bounds or out of bounds) and an official not near the play has a stoppage (TO from the "opposite" team, or a flag away from the play, for example). If more officials echo the stop clock, I am more likely to pick it up sooner.

OTOH, it can also be confusing: a fumble, a scrum, the ball ends up near the line to gain, one official peers in the pile and winds the clock; another comes running in and stops the clock; 5 others do nothing (I am sure they are doing something--just nothing that affects the clock).

And, yes, -- there's a lot going on up there, and most of us are wearing multiple hats during the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

As a clock operator for college, I can say that having multiple officials stopping the clock can help -- especially when the play ends near one sideline (so I am watching that official to see if the play ended in bounds or out of bounds) and an official not near the play has a stoppage (TO from the "opposite" team, or a flag away from the play, for example). If more officials echo the stop clock, I am more likely to pick it up sooner.

I agree it might be easier to see, but if you have a tight spot where the line to gain is not clearly reached, it would make little sense and would be improper if the Back Judge stops the clock and the player was not out of bounds. You only give that signal as a Back Judge if we are way past that line or it is 4th down, where it does not matter if the LTG is reached. And certainly at the college level we might get asked why we are killing the clock on a play we are not ruling. Just not a good practice for us to use.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

OTOH, it can also be confusing: a fumble, a scrum, the ball ends up near the line to gain, one official peers in the pile and winds the clock; another comes running in and stops the clock; 5 others do nothing (I am sure they are doing something--just nothing that affects the clock).

Well on a long delay or clearly a pile after a fumble or loose ball, we are to stop the clock to dig if there is not clear possession beforehand. So you may have an official not near the pile stop the clock.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, yes, -- there's a lot going on up there, and most of us are wearing multiple hats during the game.

Well, that clearly seems to be the case because of how often we have to correct clock issues at the college level.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Didn't mean to apply "mirroring" someone else's signals is appropriate, It's generally not, with the exception of STOPPING play. That 1st whistle ENDS the play EVERYWHERE, right, wrong or indifferent. Secondary whistles simply announce to everyone else that the play HAS BEEN ended (so EVERYONE should stop playing, and hopefully avoid doing something unnecessary, now that the ball has been declared DEAD.)

Well I can tell you that again we do not on my crew or most crews I have worked with, blow our whistle on plays we do not see. Even if it is obvious. Players in my experience know when the play is over and often stop. Yes if there are players that are clearly still playing or cannot stop, there might be a whistle from that covering official, but that is not very common. If I do not see leather, I am not blowing my whistle. I am more likely to use my voice or yell at players the "ball is dead" or something so they know what to do at that point. But blowing a whistle for the most part and not ruling on something is a big no-no here. All it takes is that one time.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Inside officials (Umpire, Referee, opposite Wing) repeating TO signals can be extremely helpful in avoiding unnecessary problems with delayed clock stoppages caused by the initial signal not being visible to the clock operator (especially when a wing official may be obscured by the congestion in the Team Box area.)

I was a Back Judge on my crew for years with a playoff crew, I probably only blew my whistle on incomplete passes or very long runs. Otherwise, I would never blow my whistle. I am a Referee on the same crew now if the play does not end in the backfield, I do not blow my whistle at all. And even in the backfield it better be at my feet. As I said many plays end without a single whistle.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I can tell you that again we do not on my crew or most crews I have worked with, blow our whistle on plays we do not see. Even if it is obvious. Players in my experience know when the play is over and often stop. Yes if there are players that are clearly still playing or cannot stop, there might be a whistle from that covering official, but that is not very common. If I do not see leather, I am not blowing my whistle. I am more likely to use my voice or yell at players the "ball is dead" or something so they know what to do at that point. But blowing a whistle for the most part and not ruling on something is a big no-no here. All it takes is that one time.

I was a Back Judge on my crew for years with a playoff crew, I probably only blew my whistle on incomplete passes or very long runs. Otherwise, I would never blow my whistle. I am a Referee on the same crew now if the play does not end in the backfield, I do not blow my whistle at all. And even in the backfield it better be at my feet. As I said many plays end without a single whistle.

Peace

I am in complete agreement with you here. I'm now an umpire (was an LJ when I created this profile) and I'm sure there are games where I never blow my whistle. Most common instance would be a false start or to alert the crew I had a foul. The only time I do it to signal the end of a play is on a kickoff when I'm the covering official on the return. On regular scrimmage plays I spit out my whistle and use my voice to let players know "plays over!"

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I am in complete agreement with you here. I'm now an umpire (was an LJ when I created this profile) and I'm sure there are games where I never blow my whistle. Most common instance would be a false start or to alert the crew I had a foul. The only time I do it to signal the end of a play is on a kickoff when I'm the covering official on the return. On regular scrimmage plays I spit out my whistle and use my voice to let players know "plays over!"

Good idea, if ever there was a situation perfectly fitting the advice, "One size NEVER fits all", it's a football game, especially considering the enormous span in the maturity, experience, skill, talent and physical abilities of the participant as well as the progressive complexity of how the game is played, and managed, at different levels.

[Rich]

Last night the timer came to our locker room. Has been doing it a long time. Nice guy.

I warned him that my wind after a first down inbounds could be really quick -- maybe a second after the clock stops if the ball is inside the hash marks.

Then I found myself winding....and winding....and winding.....

At some point the timers will catch on, but I am not changing our mechanics. They need to adapt to us, not us adapt (forever) to them.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Rich

Last night the timer came to our locker room. Has been doing it a long time. Nice guy.

I warned him that my wind after a first down inbounds could be really quick -- maybe a second after the clock stops if the ball is inside the hash marks.

Then I found myself winding....and winding....and winding.....

At some point the timers will catch on, but I am not changing our mechanics. They need to adapt to us, not us adapt (forever) to them.

I would say 1 second is REALLY quick. The NCAA guideline is 4-5 seconds on first downs and out of bounds (the latter obviously doesn't apply to us) and that's pretty quick. The umpire doesn't even have the ball and the box hasn't moved in 1 second. The HS game is not that long that we have to be in a hurry to get the clock started.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I would say 1 second is REALLY quick. The NCAA guideline is 4-5 seconds on first downs and out of bounds (the latter obviously doesn't apply to us) and that's pretty quick. The umpire doesn't even have the ball and the box hasn't moved in 1 second. The HS game is not that long that we have to be in a hurry to get the clock started.

1 second is probably an exaggeration in reality.

I just wanted him to be watching. He wasn't, not all the time.

It's quicker, though, than when I had to give a RFP whistle/signal.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I would say 1 second is REALLY quick. The NCAA guideline is 4-5 seconds on first downs and out of bounds (the latter obviously doesn't apply to us) and that's pretty quick. The umpire doesn't even have the ball and the box hasn't moved in 1 second. The HS game is not that long that we have to be in a hurry to get the clock started.

Unfortunately, "watching" doesn't guarantee "seeing". There are inescapable factors unique to EACH game site: including,

Lighting: (Some a lot better than others).
Height of the "PressBox": (Higher is usually better)
Team Box Area: (Wing officials blend in & disappear in front of Team Box)
Uniforms: Conversion to Black pants (from white knickers) was a God send, BUT, they make officials a lot less easily identified.)
Signaler's location: Signals given from close to &/or the far side of the mass of player humanity, can be totally invisible to the Press Box. Whereas signals given from empty space apart from congestion are FAR MORE visible. (not always possible, but worth considering)
Sideline Signals: (BOTH sides, officials disappear infront of, or behind Team Box areas. Repeating T/O wing signals by U, BJ or R are VERY helpful.
Time signalling: When signalling, when possible watch the clock, and keep signalling until it stops


As I'm sure most understand, once the ball is snapped, all sorts of things start to happen, and the view from the Press Box is not the same, or as specific as the one seen on a TV screen.

Some fields offer a LOT BETTER "seeing", than others, and the only one that matters is the field YOUR GAME is being played on, so adjustment may be necessary.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I would say 1 second is REALLY quick. The NCAA guideline is 4-5 seconds on first downs and out of bounds (the latter obviously doesn't apply to us) and that's pretty quick. The umpire doesn't even have the ball and the box hasn't moved in 1 second. The HS game is not that long that we have to be in a hurry to get the clock started.

Unfortunately, "watching" doesn't guarantee "seeing". There are inescapable factors unique to EACH game site:

Lighting: (Some a lot better than others).
Height of the "PressBox": (Higher is usually better)
Team Box Area: (Wing officials blend in & disappear in front of Team Box)
Uniforms: Conversion to Black pants (from white knickers) was a God send, BUT, they make officials a lot less easily identified.)
Signaler's location: Signals given from close to &/or the far side of the mass of player humanity, can be totally invisible to the Press Box. Whereas signals given from empty space apart from congestion are FAR MORE visible.
Sideline Signals: (BOTH sides, officials disappear infront of, or behind Team Box areas. Repeating T/O wing signals by U, BJ or R are VERY helpful.
Time signalling: When signalling, when possible watch the clock, and keep signalling until it stops


As I'm sure most understand, once the ball is snapped, all sorts of things start to happen, and the view from the Press Box is not the same, nor as specific as the one seen on a TV screen.

Some fields offer a LOT BETTER "seeing", than others, and the only one that matters is the field YOUR GAME is being played on.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I would say 1 second is REALLY quick. The NCAA guideline is 4-5 seconds on first downs and out of bounds (the latter obviously doesn't apply to us) and that's pretty quick. The umpire doesn't even have the ball and the box hasn't moved in 1 second. The HS game is not that long that we have to be in a hurry to get the clock started.

Unfortunately, "watching" doesn't guarantee "seeing". There are inescapable factors unique to EACH game site:

Lighting: (Some a lot better than others).
Height of the "PressBox": (Higher is usually better)
Team Box Area: (Wing officials blend in & disappear in front of Team Box)
Uniforms: Conversion to Black pants (from white knickers) was a God send, BUT, they make officials a lot less easily identified.)
Signaler's location: Signals given from close to &/or the far side of the mass of player humanity, can be totally invisible to the Press Box. Whereas signals given from empty space apart from congestion are FAR MORE visible.
Sideline Signals: (BOTH sides, officials disappear infront of, or behind Team Box areas. Repeating T/O wing signals by U, BJ or R are VERY helpful.
Time signalling: When signalling, when possible watch the clock, and keep signalling until it stops


As I'm sure most understand, once the ball is snapped, all sorts of things start to happen, and the view from the Press Box is not the same, nor as specific as the one seen on a TV screen.

Some fields offer a LOT BETTER "seeing", than others, and the only one that matters is the field YOUR GAME is being played on, so adjustments may be necessary.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich

Last night the timer came to our locker room. Has been doing it a long time. Nice guy.

I warned him that my wind after a first down inbounds could be really quick -- maybe a second after the clock stops if the ball is inside the hash marks.

Then I found myself winding....and winding....and winding.....

At some point the timers will catch on, but I am not changing our mechanics. They need to adapt to us, not us adapt (forever) to them.

Wow. When NCAA first adopted the business of stopping the clock to reset the chain -- close to 50 years ago -- that provision didn't even reference the ready-for-play. It just provided for time out of the period while that marker was being moved, independently of when the ball was ready for play -- which is weird to my mind. (At that time, when it was goal to go, the front stick was placed on the sideline with the chain stretched in the end zone, same as it would've been in the field of play, rather than laid down.) It did noticeably lengthen games, enough to increase scoring.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Wow. When NCAA first adopted the business of stopping the clock to reset the chain -- close to 50 years ago -- that provision didn't even reference the ready-for-play. It just provided for time out of the period while that marker was being moved, independently of when the ball was ready for play -- which is weird to my mind. (At that time, when it was goal to go, the front stick was placed on the sideline with the chain stretched in the end zone, same as it would've been in the field of play, rather than laid down.) It did noticeably lengthen games, enough to increase scoring.

Our instruction is that we're to wind independent of the chains/box moving. It's all about the ball being placed -- and when the umpire steps away, it's RFP *by rule*. The clock should be started then. It may be started before the umpire steps away -- it's really when I'm OK with A snapping the football.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I can tell you that again we do not on my crew or most crews I have worked with, blow our whistle on plays we do not see. Even if it is obvious. Players in my experience know when the play is over and often stop. Yes if there are players that are clearly still playing or cannot stop, there might be a whistle from that covering official, but that is not very common. If I do not see leather, I am not blowing my whistle. I am more likely to use my voice or yell at players the "ball is dead" or something so they know what to do at that point. But blowing a whistle for the most part and not ruling on something is a big no-no here. All it takes is that one time.







I was a Back Judge on my crew for years with a playoff crew, I probably only blew my whistle on incomplete passes or very long runs. Otherwise, I would never blow my whistle. I am a Referee on the same crew now if the play does not end in the backfield, I do not blow my whistle at all. And even in the backfield it better be at my feet. As I said many plays end without a single whistle.



Peace

To me it's a sign of a good crew when I hear one whistle end a play the vast majority of the time.

And vice versa.


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