The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 23, 2019, 12:12pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
That's how our college games go as well although each ball person will have balls for the same team. That way the wing can turn to the right official and reduce the likelihood of getting the wrong ball. If the ball boys have to keep track of which ball belongs to which team they will send the wrong ball in a couple times. But both systems work fine.

We usually have 2 or 3 ball kids on each side for HS games and most teams check 3-5 balls each game so it's definitely possible. It's been that way for my near 20-year experience of officiating HS so we are used to it. It could be hard if you have no ball persons today and each team only checks one ball. But it's definitely doable because there are plenty of kids who would love to do it and each team has 8-10 usable balls. Just go to a practice to know that.
And that is why many of us are concerned about this new rule. What you are talking about as if it is the norm is not the norm or will not be the norm for many of us. We still have no policy to have a uniformed response to changing balls. I would love it if they did just partially what college does, but there is no such policy or action that everyone seems to agree on to use. So every week will be an adventure.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 24, 2019, 11:32am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,857
Worked a few scrimmages and the rule does work for the most part. The issue is going to be when the situations take place that happens in real game situations. And my biggest concern is end of game situations where teams might just use this to milk the clock.

I still think like most brand new NF rules, this was not very well thought out and certainly did not think of the possible application of these rules. It is one thing to say what jersey cannot be worn or what types of jewelry needs to be taken off, those are easy fixes. This takes a series of things and situations that could cause problems. If you do not have a ball boy system in place, this rule is going to have very inconsistent application. If you have no on-field game clocks across the board, you will have inconsistent application.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 09:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Worked a few scrimmages and the rule does work for the most part. The issue is going to be when the situations take place that happens in real game situations. And my biggest concern is end of game situations where teams might just use this to milk the clock.

I still think like most brand new NF rules, this was not very well thought out and certainly did not think of the possible application of these rules. It is one thing to say what jersey cannot be worn or what types of jewelry needs to be taken off, those are easy fixes. This takes a series of things and situations that could cause problems. If you do not have a ball boy system in place, this rule is going to have very inconsistent application. If you have no on-field game clocks across the board, you will have inconsistent application.

Peace
It was extremely thought out. Indiana tried to do an experiment 4 years ago but didn't go through the proper channels so we had to wait a year. In the past 3 years I believe at least 3 or 4 states have experimented with it.

Your issues all seem to be very local and things that should have been addressed regardless of the 40 second play clock. Bad ball boys. One ball per team the entire game. Sounds like a problem that definitely needs a solution and the rule indirectly solves it (not the intent but definitely a benefit). If your state doesn't recognize that and do something about those issues that is a problem with your state and not the NFHS rule.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 11:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
It was extremely thought out. Indiana tried to do an experiment 4 years ago but didn't go through the proper channels so we had to wait a year. In the past 3 years I believe at least 3 or 4 states have experimented with it.Your issues all seem to be very local and things that should have been addressed regardless of the 40 second play clock. Bad ball boys. One ball per team the entire game. Sounds like a problem that definitely needs a solution and the rule indirectly solves it (not the intent but definitely a benefit). If your state doesn't recognize that and do something about those issues that is a problem with your state and not the NFHS rule.
Actually, "Time will tell, how well thought out these changes were", but they are what they are, and we need to adjust to them, as best we can. Much like Real Estate, 99.9% of the "Interscholastic Level" of football, is "Local", and it will likely be quicker/longer for individual areas to fully adapt.

Where "every week will be an adventure" it's likely the skill, common sense, and sound judgment of Field Officials will provide the glue that holds things together, as it has done (reasonably well) for the last 100, or so, seasons.

There may very well likely be additional "tweaks", "recommendations" and possible adjustments, but like water, different skill levels of football eventually adjust to seek their "proper level", as happily yet another season unfolds.

Last edited by ajmc; Sun Aug 25, 2019 at 11:12am.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 12:44pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
It was extremely thought out. Indiana tried to do an experiment 4 years ago but didn't go through the proper channels so we had to wait a year. In the past 3 years I believe at least 3 or 4 states have experimented with it.

Your issues all seem to be very local and things that should have been addressed regardless of the 40 second play clock. Bad ball boys. One ball per team the entire game. Sounds like a problem that definitely needs a solution and the rule indirectly solves it (not the intent but definitely a benefit). If your state doesn't recognize that and do something about those issues that is a problem with your state and not the NFHS rule.
All the states that did the experimental rule had people that are college officials as their administrator of the sport.

Also not sure what you mean by very local? You mean the entire state? I was not referring to my immediate area. You realize I live in some of the most affluent areas in the state of Illinois and those schools do not have play clocks and in some cases turf. But turf is very common here and that was often a bone of contention with school districts to provide. Most of the schools also are bigger schools that are like from 6A to 8A (we have 8 classes) with over 2000 students (or more) in those schools depending on the school's size. Again, we do not have ball boys. Worked two scrimmages and no mention of having any ball boys. So you keep trying to convince me of something that no one has a plan for. The state's solution was to approve more balls per game (something we already did BTW for bad weather games). It might have been well thought out at the local level with the people doing the experimental rules, but that does not mean it was well thought out by the others. Again, not the biggest deal, but there we did not take the college approach to this which is what my issue was from jump. And to me, this does not make everything perfect in football. IT is just a rule change. All NF rules changes are not well thought out. And it really was not well thought out if lower levels have 2 officials working games in many cases. Heck, we do not even have game clocks in many lower-level games at all. But hey, it was well thought out right?

Just like other things the state could have said or put in a procedure for ball boys just like they do when it comes chain crews. They have a suggested procedure that we as officials can refer to and it is so common we do not have to even address basic things.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)

Last edited by JRutledge; Sun Aug 25, 2019 at 12:48pm.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 03:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
All the states that did the experimental rule had people that are college officials as their administrator of the sport.

Also not sure what you mean by very local? You mean the entire state? I was not referring to my immediate area. You realize I live in some of the most affluent areas in the state of Illinois and those schools do not have play clocks and in some cases turf. But turf is very common here and that was often a bone of contention with school districts to provide. Most of the schools also are bigger schools that are like from 6A to 8A (we have 8 classes) with over 2000 students (or more) in those schools depending on the school's size. Again, we do not have ball boys. Worked two scrimmages and no mention of having any ball boys. So you keep trying to convince me of something that no one has a plan for. The state's solution was to approve more balls per game (something we already did BTW for bad weather games). It might have been well thought out at the local level with the people doing the experimental rules, but that does not mean it was well thought out by the others. Again, not the biggest deal, but there we did not take the college approach to this which is what my issue was from jump. And to me, this does not make everything perfect in football. IT is just a rule change. All NF rules changes are not well thought out. And it really was not well thought out if lower levels have 2 officials working games in many cases. Heck, we do not even have game clocks in many lower-level games at all. But hey, it was well thought out right?

Just like other things the state could have said or put in a procedure for ball boys just like they do when it comes chain crews. They have a suggested procedure that we as officials can refer to and it is so common we do not have to even address basic things.

Peace
Correct. By local I meant the state of Illinois. That is 1 of 45 states doing this for the first time this year. That is very local. Based on what you have shared your state has a major issue understanding effective ball mechanics and game management. That's unfortunate and I agree there is only so much you guys can do about it. They have put you in a tough position. Hopefully someone is giving them feedback. "This will work if we made these 2 or 3 minor changes."

The person behind this not only has no experience in college football rules he despises us doing anything he considers a college mechanic or philosophy. He learned many crews were starting each series on a yard line to make measurements largely unnecessary and sent an email out telling us not to use that "college mechanic." It's not a college mechanic. It's just a good practice for game management when the specific spot doesn't matter (i.e. between the 10s). And our state has maybe 30 active HS officials who also do college (out of 900 licensed officials) so it was new to almost everyone when we started it.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 03:31pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,567
My Week 1 takes:

1) a) ball boys did not follow me along the field - no change from 2018+
b) ball boys were slow on occasion to get me a new ball - no change from
2018+
c) ball boys once threw two balls in when I called for a new ball - no change
from 2018+

2) PCO apparently misunderstood R in pre-game when he was told that the
play clock would start on a 1st down after U checked the box and backed
away from the ball. Otherwise he was to go with the DBS, incomplete, or
TO signal of the covering official. He seemed to go off the U every play.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 07:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 639
It happens. However, as the season progresses, and the play clock operators get more experience with the 40-second play clock, they will figure out how things work, so that by the time that the playoffs roll around, there won't be as many (or any) play clock issues.
This is from the series of growing pains, which can be alleviated through more education (e.g. Last year, you keyed off the Referee. Now, you need to see if the ball is dead. WHEN IT IS DEAD, start the 40-second play clock (usually the covering official will give a dead ball signal (raised hand), but other signals also trigger the 40-second play clock (incomplete pass or stop the clock [for ball carrier out of bounds or a first down])), UNLESS there is a flag or the officials stop the GAME (team timeout, official timeout, injury, measurement, change of possession etc.). When in doubt, we will help you by pumping up one hand to reset the play clock to 25 seconds and start it, or by pumping up two hands to reset the play clock to 40 seconds and start it. ), planning (having and instructing ball boys (in college games, this is one of the duties of the Field Judge and Side Judge; for high school games, this is on the Head Linesman and Line Judge, unless your state association uses 6 or 7 man crews.), establishing a ball rotation protocol for teams using multiple balls (either have both teams' balls on both sidelines, as in college, or have a way to quickly transfer balls between sidelines and send balls in when the ball goes outside the hashmarks (long incomplete passes, ball carrier out of bounds), etc.), and patience on the part of the game officials. There was a learning curve in some states when they decided to experiment with the 40-second play clock. They figured out ways to make it work, so it is very much possible that the other states will make it work as well.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 25, 2019, 08:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
My Week 1 takes:

1) a) ball boys did not follow me along the field - no change from 2018+
b) ball boys were slow on occasion to get me a new ball - no change from
2018+
c) ball boys once threw two balls in when I called for a new ball - no change
from 2018+

2) PCO apparently misunderstood R in pre-game when he was told that the
play clock would start on a 1st down after U checked the box and backed
away from the ball. Otherwise he was to go with the DBS, incomplete, or
TO signal of the covering official. He seemed to go off the U every play.
You'll have those hiccups occasionally but once they get used to it, it will be fine. The more common issue we had was the game clock operator starting the clock after a first down in bounds and the R giving a silent wind.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 03, 2019, 03:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 37
25 or 40?

when does the play clock start after a kickoff? Thank You
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 03, 2019, 04:45pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwaz View Post
when does the play clock start after a kickoff? Thank You
When the Referee blows the RFP which is a 25-second clock.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 08, 2019, 05:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,170
Quote:
The more common issue we had was the game clock operator starting the clock after a first down in bounds and the R giving a silent wind.
Why is this an issue? The clock operator not watching? Or the R blowing? If the latter, I don't see that as a problem, though I don't blow my whistle unless I think I need to. The former should be taken care of in pregame.

To me, all plays, all codes, that end in bounds should keep the clock running.
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 08, 2019, 10:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post

To me, all plays, all codes, that end in bounds should keep the clock running.
NFHS 3-4-2 The game clock shall start with the RFP on a down beginning with a snap if the game clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in 3-4-3 or an untimed down:
a. For an official's TO.........

NFHS 3-4-3 "The game clock will start with the SNAP......If the game clock was stopped for: (reasons a-j including
b. B or R is awarded a new series.
c. Either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick
(A CONTINUOUS FIRST DOWN IS NOT LISTED)

NFHS 3-5-7 "An officials TO occurs during a dead ball:
b. When a 1st down is declared."

Last edited by ajmc; Sun Sep 08, 2019 at 11:22pm.
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 09, 2019, 01:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
Why is this an issue? The clock operator not watching? Or the R blowing? If the latter, I don't see that as a problem, though I don't blow my whistle unless I think I need to. The former should be taken care of in pregame.

To me, all plays, all codes, that end in bounds should keep the clock running.
The game clock operator likely wasn't paying attention and he was used to a whistle starting the game clock after a first down in bounds. We are instructed to not blow a whistle in this case so the R would just wind and wind until the clock operator caught on or the ball was snapped. It maybe happened in 2 or 3 games the first year and once or twice the second year. Now it's rare, but it still occasionally happens.
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 09, 2019, 08:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
The game clock operator likely wasn't paying attention and he was used to a whistle starting the game clock after a first down in bounds..
Not really a big deal, either way, but....The Referee, blowing his whistle to announce the RFP (so that everyone, even those not specifically looking at him, understood the RFP was declared) worked pretty well for 100, or so, years.

Why such a big deal about changing that?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NCAA Play Clock bob jenkins Football 1 Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:16pm
Play clock countdown timeout RadioBlue Football 7 Mon Nov 11, 2013 01:57pm
Play clock and game clock ar the same. JRutledge Football 13 Wed Oct 19, 2011 08:41am
NCAA FB Play Clock bob jenkins Football 2 Wed Sep 08, 2010 06:09am
Shot clock violation? Or play on? Back In The Saddle Basketball 5 Sun Oct 26, 2008 04:15am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1