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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 09:28am
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Dead Ball Technical question.

Situation that I had last week that has been bugging me. Just wanted some insight from the gurus here!

A1 and B1 dive for a loose ball and tie it up. I come in and call a held ball. As I look up to see the arrow, B3 kicks A1 in the face on the floor. My partner gets the dead-ball technical and we ejected B3. For the record, Team B had the arrow.

Since the held ball occurred before the DBT, how to we handle the AP? Do we shoot the FTs and then go to the AP and follow through with the procedure for the held ball? Do we shoot FTs, give the ball to A and ignore the A?

Had never had this before in 20 years. Always something new.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 09:47am
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Leave arrow as is, administer tech.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 10:01am
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The arrow does not change because you never administer a AP throw-in.

You just administer the flagrant technical and let anyone shoot the FTs that is available on Team A and put the ball at half court, opposite the table.

Peace
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Ref View Post
A1 and B1 dive for a loose ball and tie it up. I come in and call a held ball. As I look up to see the arrow, B3 kicks A1 in the face on the floor. My partner gets the dead-ball technical and we ejected B3. For the record, Team B had the arrow.
What if the held ball occurred just as the horn to end the first period sounded, and then the kick occurred after the horn?

The first period ended with the horn sounding? Right? After the one minute intermission between the two period ends, doesn't the second period begin with the free throws for the technical foul, followed by a non-possession arrow throw in by the offended team (Team A) with no change in the direction of the arrow (still for Team B on next alternate possession situation, next held ball, ball out of bounds caused by two opponents, other relevant situations, or after halftime)?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 10:33am.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 10:26am
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As stated by fellow posters, the penalty for the DBT is 2 shots, and the throw-in for the offended team. Thus, the AP arrow is not affected
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Ref View Post
Situation that I had last week that has been bugging me. Just wanted some insight from the gurus here!

A1 and B1 dive for a loose ball and tie it up. I come in and call a held ball. As I look up to see the arrow, B3 kicks A1 in the face on the floor. My partner gets the dead-ball technical and we ejected B3. For the record, Team B had the arrow.

Since the held ball occurred before the DBT, how to we handle the AP? Do we shoot the FTs and then go to the AP and follow through with the procedure for the held ball? Do we shoot FTs, give the ball to A and ignore the A?

Had never had this before in 20 years. Always something new.
I've seen the extracurricular stuff a lot, doesn't always rise to the level of calling a T, but it's something we need to watch. This is why I've always been trained that the calling official should not be looking away to see the arrow. Off ball official should glance up if need be, but the on ball official shouldn't look anywhere else until the players are separated.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:14pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
This is why I've always been trained that the calling official should not be looking away to see the arrow. Off ball official should glance up if need be, but the on ball official shouldn't look anywhere else until the players are separated.
We almost never look at the table arrow. Here, in my little corner of Connecticut, we're taught, from the get go, to keep an extra whistle in our pocket, and to switch it every time the alternating possession arrow changes.

We're all really good at this. This past week, as the umpire, I forgot (a rarity for me) to switch my whistle after the third/fourth period intermission alternating possession throwin. The next held ball, I felt for the whistle in my pocket, and came out with a direction, and a color. My partner immediately corrected me, and a quick look at the table arrow confirmed my error. With two whistles, and an arrow, two out of three almost always wins. If we have to, we'll throw some memory into the mix.

Also, there's no arrow at the table for all of my Catholic middle school games, the pocket whistle is the official arrow. When my partner and I can't agree, which very seldom happens, we use our memory, and my partner almost always remembers better than me.

Now, I am not suggesting that others use this procedure (When in Rome ...). All I know, is that it's the way we've done things here since 1985 (possession arrow adopted). Rookies are taught that this is the correct "local" mechanic, and they are expected to do it. All 325 of us are expected to do it. Maybe because it works. "If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it" (Thomas Bertram "Bert" Lance, 1977).

Even then, if we still screw up, we just tell the coach that we'll be sure to give him two of the next three arrows, and he'll be totally satisfied.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 05:57pm.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:22pm
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Official(s) tableside ought never turn around to look at direction of the AP arrow...ever. Official opposite table with most convenient line-of-sight to the table gives a quick glance, then gives directional signal. Other official(s) pick up on that to prep for next throw-in. Maximum amount of time with all eyes on players as possible.
Of course, when in Nome, do as the Nomans do. Just so heads aren't unnecessarily turning away from potential dead ball action areas.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 03:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
We almost never look at the table arrow. Here, in my little corner of Connecticut, we're taught, from the get go, to keep an extra whistle in our pocket, and to switch it every time the alternating possession arrow changes.
Good advice for those who live in specific corners of Connecticut. Not so much for the rest of us.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 03:05pm
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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Official(s) tableside ought never turn around to look at direction of the AP arrow...ever. Official opposite table with most convenient line-of-sight to the table gives a quick glance, then gives directional signal. Other official(s) pick up on that to prep for next throw-in. Maximum amount of time with all eyes on players as possible.
Of course, when in Nome, do as the Nomans do. Just so heads aren't unnecessarily turning away from potential dead ball action areas.
Exactly
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 03:49pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Good advice for those who live in specific corners of Connecticut. Not so much for the rest of us.
Thus,

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I am not suggesting that others use this procedure (When in Rome ...).
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 04:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I've seen the extracurricular stuff a lot, doesn't always rise to the level of calling a T, but it's something we need to watch.
I had this last weekend. My partner calls a held ball and I'm opposite the table. Before I can check the arrow, V11, one of the players involved in the tie-up, pulls the ball away and swings her body so that she catches the home player with a shoulder to the chest. I didn't think it was flagrant, but serious enough for me to call an intentional technical. I could only when the V coach told me, "You need to call more fouls." I replied, "Coach, I just called one," and moved to my new spot. To top it off, this was 4th grade CYO girls.

Today, in my 6th grade girls and boys games, we had a couple of times where the players tying the ball up kept going after the whistle, but closing down on them while saying "easy" or "play's over" was enough to stop them and keep the situation from escalating.

That said, I agree with Adam. I believe dead ball officiating was a POE last season. This is a good example of that.
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Last edited by Stat-Man; Sat Feb 14, 2015 at 04:23pm.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2015, 11:15pm
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Originally Posted by Rob1968 View Post
As stated by fellow posters, the penalty for the DBT is 2 shots, and the throw-in for the offended team. Thus, the AP arrow is not affected
Might be worth noting that this ruling is nearly the same for both NFHS (Flagrant Tech) and NCAA (Flagrant 2 Tech) because the POI is not used for a Flagrant 2 Tech.

After the free throws, the only difference in college is that the ball could be put in play at the division line on either side of the table. Most college officials go opposite, anyway, even though they have a choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but had this been a routine POI technical, the POI would have been the AP throw-in?
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2015, 12:43am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Might be worth noting that this ruling is nearly the same for both NFHS (Flagrant Tech) and NCAA (Flagrant 2 Tech) because the POI is not used for a Flagrant 2 Tech.

After the free throws, the only difference in college is that the ball could be put in play at the division line on either side of the table. Most college officials go opposite, anyway, even though they have a choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but had this been a routine POI technical, the POI would have been the AP throw-in?
Your NCAA rules knowledge is a little off. Go do some research an post again once you've read the section on technical fouls and flagrant personal fouls.

By the way, there is no such thing as a "routine" technical foul in the rules book. What do you mean by that? It could mean different things to different people.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Sun Feb 15, 2015 at 03:16am.
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2015, 12:51am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Might be worth noting that this ruling is nearly the same for both NFHS (Flagrant Tech) and NCAA (Flagrant 2 Tech) because the POI is not used for a Flagrant 2 Tech.

After the free throws, the only difference in college is that the ball could be put in play at the division line on either side of the table. Most college officials go opposite, anyway, even though they have a choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but had this been a routine POI technical, the POI would have been the AP throw-in?
For NCAA, yes. The OP was high school, so there isn't a POI tech (unless multiple)
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