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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 18, 2015, 05:27pm
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Foul. Defender steps to the offensive player as he ends his dribble. Jump straight after moving to shooter, hits with body and hits wrist.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 18, 2015, 05:37pm
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Happy Trail to You -- If Given a Chance

Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
The lead had a foul on the play.
A more intriguing question besides what is the correct call is this: "Who should make a call on a play like this?"
This is one of those situations deserving of special pregame mention. Every single game. Without fail. Common enough not to just let 'em happen and take a chance on 'em and hope the Lead or Center gets it right.
Lead, presuming he's in closedown position, is in a very bad position to make that call -- he's straightlined. Right?
Center, with the dribble-drive originating in his area, isn't really able to catch a cross-section of the play either, unless stepped waaaaay down. Right?
Neither of those two have any kind of slot view. Neither can reliably determine whether the defender is in his vertical or not, initiating contact or not, jumping into the shooter or not. And when either make a call on this one, most of the time it's gonna be against the defender whether or not he made contact outside his vertical.
This is where an engaged Trail, the only one of the three, by virtue of his positioning, would have a good look at it in order to make a call. But it really takes discipline on the part of a diligent crew for the Lead and Center to withhold their whistles in favor of what their Trail might determine.
In the two-person system, this really, really is a tough one, since both Lead and Trail are likely stacked on the play.
Agree? Or have I been listening to too much Badfinger today all day at work?
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Last edited by Freddy; Sun Jan 18, 2015 at 05:44pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 18, 2015, 07:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnyboy View Post
Foul. Defender steps to the offensive player as he ends his dribble. Jump straight after moving to shooter, hits with body and hits wrist.
What is illegal about that.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 01:51am
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Easily a held ball.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 02:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I have a pushing foul by B33 against W5. B33 jumps forward into W5 after W5 goes airborne and makes full body contact with B33.

MTD, Sr.
I don't know how you have anything but defender jumping vertically?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 02:34am
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Who's the home team?

But in all seriousness. I'm with BigCat on this one. Looks like a foul.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 08:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I have a pushing foul by B33 against W5. B33 jumps forward into W5 after W5 goes airborne and makes full body contact with B33.

MTD, Sr.
In my world, that satisfies the principal of verticality and colloquially would be known as a "weenie foul."
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 09:49am
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I have the player jumping vertically but moving forward into space while the offense is gathered and jumping into their shot. Did not have LGP in the position he's trying to maintain vertically. If you are going to call the foul that's enough to put it on the D.

In my corner of the universe in a game where players are athletic enough to do that (which isn't often) you need a lot more contact then that to have anything but a no call or in this case the held ball.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
In my corner of the universe in a game where players are athletic enough to do that (which isn't often) you need a lot more contact then that to have anything but a no call or in this case the held ball.
Mine, too. Technically a foul by strict interpretation, but sometimes we have to be loose constructionists in our business. If the defender is going up mostly vertical, and is clearly that athletic, and gets hand on ball at the apex....not a foul! This kind of play is great for the game. Excellent place for a held ball.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
I have the player jumping vertically but moving forward into space while the offense is gathered and jumping into their shot.
I'm not sure how it works in FIBA but in NFHS as long as the defender is done moving forward before the offensive player goes airborne, he can still obtain LGP.

That said, I have a held ball and that's it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
I'm not sure how it works in FIBA but in NFHS as long as the defender is done moving forward before the offensive player goes airborne, he can still obtain LGP.

That said, I have a held ball and that's it.
FIBA we go on the gather now (similar to the NCAA interp from last year that they reversed this year). That being said I felt like the offense was still coming forward when the offense left the floor.

But I've got held ball as that has little to no impact on the play.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 03:15pm
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Add "block shots" to the list of plays (including: block/charge and traveling)that officials struggle to officiate correctly.

Simply put, if you work games with limited size, quickness, & athleticism...then you probably will view this as a foul (as you don't have very many block shots that occur in those types of games).

From my view, this is NOT a foul - simply a held ball. The defender had LGP, did not got thru the body of the shooter to get to the ball, and made contact w/ the ball prior to any contact w/ the hand/wrist/arm.

I'm sure others will disagree...or even feel as if I'm disparaging the games they work...that's certainly not my intent. Simply trying to clarify WHY I feel it's a held ball and why others may feel it's a foul.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 19, 2015, 09:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
Simply put, if you work games with limited size, quickness, & athleticism...then you probably will view this as a foul (as you don't have very many block shots that occur in those types of games).
This is a generalization but I tend to agree with it. I'm sure there are a few in this thread with impressive resumes who would call this a foul but the majority seem to agree its a held ball.

And my experience and observations on the court leads me to the same generalization regarding the kinds of games people usually work. In the extended DC metro area there is a wide range of quality of play at the HS level. From very mediocre ball to some of the best HS competition in the country.

Occasionally guys who work mostly mediocre level of play get games with future D-1 players and it shows. They have too many fouls on marginal contact and whistles that shouldnt be in the game. Then often freeze up and miss the obvious stuff right in front of them. But I digress.

Earlier this season I was watching the game after mine in a tip off tournament with some very good teams. I happen to be watching with one of the most respected evaluators in our state and who is also the father of a D-1 official. A guy was reffing a game that was over his head and after a foul call on a play that was a simple out of bounds the evaluator said, "he has NO IDEA what a foul is."

When I see this thread and the one where officials want to T a kid for hanging on the rim to stabilize his momentum this generalization comes to mind.
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