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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 08:57am
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Hi all,

I have been reading this forum for several months now and as a new referee have learned much from many of the threads.

Now I have the courage to post a question of my own.

In a middle school youth game other day, A1 and B1 fight for a rebound and both are holding the ball. A1 is a bigger and stronger player than B1. Referees call a jump ball. Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball, A1 rips the ball out of B1's hands and sends B1 to the floor. No contact between players other than the ball being forcefully pulled away. B1 gets hurt (banged her head on the floor but not seriously, just shaken up) from falling to the floor. B1 gets replaced. As B1 is being replaced, the referee decides to change the held ball call to a foul.

My question is, should a foul be called in this situation? The only basis for a foul I could see was excessive force but no contact with the other player was made. I would not have called the foul on player A. What do you think?
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:01am
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remeber I use FIBA rules but I wouldn't have called it.
Yes it's using lots of force but unless there's contact you can't call a personal foul (there must be physical contact to be a PF)
The exception is if the player was intending to hurt her opponent by pushing the ball on her or something similar, that would be an unsporting or disqualifing foul (or Technical, Flagrant (I think) in the US)
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:27am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ehcco
Hi all,


In a middle school youth game other day, A1 and B1 fight for a rebound and both are holding the ball. A1 is a bigger and stronger player than B1. Referees call a jump ball. Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball, A1 rips the ball out of B1's hands and sends B1 to the floor. No contact between players other than the ball being forcefully pulled away. B1 gets hurt (banged her head on the floor but not seriously, just shaken up) from falling to the floor. B1 gets replaced. As B1 is being replaced, the referee decides to change the held ball call to a foul.

My question is, should a foul be called in this situation? The only basis for a foul I could see was excessive force but no contact with the other player was made. I would not have called the foul on player A. What do you think?
That's a classic unsporting technical foul. The correct call is a held ball followed by a "T" on A1. It should be called- especially at the middle school level.

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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:32am
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then I must ask, for what? Excessive use of force, ur just opponent having bad balance (could be so)?
If the intent wasn't to hurt the opponent, why the T?
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ehcco
Hi all,

I have been reading this forum for several months now and as a new referee have learned much from many of the threads.

Now I have the courage to post a question of my own.

In a middle school youth game other day, A1 and B1 fight for a rebound and both are holding the ball. A1 is a bigger and stronger player than B1. Referees call a jump ball. Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball, A1 rips the ball out of B1's hands and sends B1 to the floor. No contact between players other than the ball being forcefully pulled away. B1 gets hurt (banged her head on the floor but not seriously, just shaken up) from falling to the floor. B1 gets replaced. As B1 is being replaced, the referee decides to change the held ball call to a foul.

My question is, should a foul be called in this situation? The only basis for a foul I could see was excessive force but no contact with the other player was made. I would not have called the foul on player A. What do you think?
All contact after the ball is dead is ignored unless it is considered flagrant or intentional.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ehcco
Hi all,


In a middle school youth game other day, A1 and B1 fight for a rebound and both are holding the ball. A1 is a bigger and stronger player than B1. Referees call a jump ball. Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball, A1 rips the ball out of B1's hands and sends B1 to the floor. No contact between players other than the ball being forcefully pulled away. B1 gets hurt (banged her head on the floor but not seriously, just shaken up) from falling to the floor. B1 gets replaced. As B1 is being replaced, the referee decides to change the held ball call to a foul.

My question is, should a foul be called in this situation? The only basis for a foul I could see was excessive force but no contact with the other player was made. I would not have called the foul on player A. What do you think?
That's a classic unsporting technical foul. The correct call is a held ball followed by a "T" on A1. It should be called- especially at the middle school level.

Welcome to the forum.
Why would you call a T on a player for being stronger? The original post says the ball was ripped just as the whistle blew so it's not like after the whistle activity. It's not uncommon when middle schoolers are both tugging on the ball and one pulls it away for the other to fall.

For the play described, I would go with a held ball. However, since the calling official changed his call to a foul, maybe he saw something we didn't.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by ehcco
Hi all,


In a middle school youth game other day, A1 and B1 fight for a rebound and both are holding the ball. A1 is a bigger and stronger player than B1. Referees call a jump ball. Just as the whistle blows for the jump ball, A1 rips the ball out of B1's hands and sends B1 to the floor. No contact between players other than the ball being forcefully pulled away. B1 gets hurt (banged her head on the floor but not seriously, just shaken up) from falling to the floor. B1 gets replaced. As B1 is being replaced, the referee decides to change the held ball call to a foul.

My question is, should a foul be called in this situation? The only basis for a foul I could see was excessive force but no contact with the other player was made. I would not have called the foul on player A. What do you think?
That's a classic unsporting technical foul. The correct call is a held ball followed by a "T" on A1. It should be called- especially at the middle school level.

Welcome to the forum.
I completely disagree. When two players (opponents) have simultaneous posession, the ball is live until the whistle blows to stop play. I dont know how many instances I have seen a rebound come off and two players have hands on it but the stronger come away with it. Another example would be if A1 is bring the ball into the frontcourt being closely guarded by B1. If A1 picks up the ball and exposes it to B1 who immediately rips it away, then if there was no foul and it wasnt blown dead for a jump ball then play continues.

In the play described above, both players had hands on the ball. Instincts say pull it away. If it can be pulled away before there is a whistle then ITS LIVE!! In the afore mentioned play both players had hands on the ball and I'm sure were trying to pull it away, my question is how can this be an unsporting act, the whistle hadnt blown. Had the whistle blown and A1 continued to pull and swung B1 to the ground then yes, unsporting. In this case IMO its a jumpball.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by crazy voyager
then I must ask, for what? Excessive use of force, ur just opponent having bad balance (could be so)?
If the intent wasn't to hurt the opponent, why the T?
A1 used enough force to put B1 on the floor, and also out of the game. And this happened in a kid's game too. If you feel that is appropriate behavior, so be it. I don't. Jmo, but I think that if you lets acts like that go, you are going to have some real big-time game management issues someday- even under FIBA rules.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by crazy voyager
then I must ask, for what? Excessive use of force, ur just opponent having bad balance (could be so)?
If the intent wasn't to hurt the opponent, why the T?
A1 used enough force to put B1 on the floor, and also out of the game. And this happened in a kid's game too. If you feel that is appropriate behavior, so be it. I don't. Jmo, but I think that if you lets acts like that go, you are going to have some real big-time game management issues someday- even under FIBA rules.
I still dont understand your interpretation of this play. Imagine yourself in a held ball situation with an opponent. You both have possesion but the whistle is late...What are you going to do? If you say anything other than try to rip it away then you havent been taught the game. So if you rip the ball away and your opponent isnt as strong as you and falls to the floor, you are going to call an unsporting foul. No way. The official should have blown the whistle sooner. Again had the "throw down" come after the whistle had blown then maybe a foul should have been called. But to penalize a player as stiff as you say is unheard of. The unsporting act rule is very open, lots of things could fall under this rule; however, it's my belief that making that call in this situation is making the rule fit your need.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:01am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by crazy voyager
then I must ask, for what? Excessive use of force, ur just opponent having bad balance (could be so)?
If the intent wasn't to hurt the opponent, why the T?
A1 used enough force to put B1 on the floor, and also out of the game. And this happened in a kid's game too. If you feel that is appropriate behavior, so be it. I don't. Jmo, but I think that if you lets acts like that go, you are going to have some real big-time game management issues someday- even under FIBA rules.
JR -- This play happens all the time and doesn't get called as any foul. It's not unsporting for one player to yank the ball away from the other. The fall and the injury resulted from the smaller, weaker player being off- balance and not able to hold herself steady, not from any unsporting action by A1.

Would you feel differently if he'd said, "Just as the larger player pulled the ball away, my partner blew his whistle. At the same moment B1 fell and hurt herself." In terms of the rules, that's what happened.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:08am
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enough force to put someone on the floor isn't much, e.g lots of big ppl (mostly those fighting for rebounds) sweat a lot (me for example). This makes your grip bad, and if the ball has bad grip, and you lose grasp when somebody pulls the ball, your body is trying to follow the ball, and when the support of the ball (the hands on the ball is keeping your balance) suddenly is gone (becuse you slip, or the ball is pulled away) you fall to the ground, try it, have somebody hold a ball, lean forward, you don't even have to let go to realise it's easy to lose your balance, just becuse a player falls does not mean the opponent commited an unsporting act, hold balls are difficult situations to officiate just becuse of the contact and force involved, but it's also hard to penalise fouls in hold ball situations, and always will be. But I still stand that if a player falls, it does not mean an unsporting act, how ever ,if the whistle is blown, players still struggles and then somebody's forced to the ground, that may warrant a T

Then I remembered this just before hitting submit:
"If a player is risking injury from the force in a hold-ball situation, the officials are to IMMEDIETLY call the jump ball to ensure saftey of the players"
If you don't quit pulling then, I would T the player, but as long as somebody isn't swining elbows or risking to injury a player, let them drag for a few seconds (3 usually is good) then call the jump ball, player falls often, in 9 of 10 cases it's not becuse of the opponent getting them to the ground, it's slipping or losing balance.

I'm sorry if this is a long and bad written post (I think it is) but I don't have the time to go through it and correct it, if it's totaly weird I'll edit it though
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:20am
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I posted my opinion. It's a middle school youth game. The action put a player on the floor and also out of the game. If you disagree that the act was unsporting, so be it. That's your opinion.

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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I posted my opinion. It's a middle school youth game. The action put a player on the floor and also out of the game. If you disagree that the act was unsporting, so be it. That's your opinion.

Seems more like it's "all of our opinion".
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I posted my opinion. It's a middle school youth game. The action put a player on the floor and also out of the game. If you disagree that the act was unsporting, so be it. That's your opinion.

Seems more like it's "all of our opinion".
That could very well be.

However, that also sureashell ain't gonna change my opinion.
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Old Tue Jan 10, 2006, 10:44am
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Talking

I think I feel a shut up comming!
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