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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 11:24am
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I need some help with a question about "unreasonable" steal:

after a player gets a defensive rebound, he holds the ball firmly against his chest with two hands (or arms), he also coils his uper body a little bit to protect the ball. while the player is looking for an outlay pass, an opponent, disregarding the fact that he is "from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent", still try to rob the ball from the ball holder, even though without significant body contact initially. But when both players strugle for the ball, significant body contact occurs.

in this situation, what call is preferred, held ball or a personal foul? if a foul call is preferred, when should the call be made, at the moment the opponent contacts the ball holder (even though it is minor), or only when severe body contact occurs?

Thanks.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 11:45am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ysong
I need some help with a question about "unreasonable" steal:

after a player gets a defensive rebound, he holds the ball firmly against his chest with two hands (or arms), he also coils his uper body a little bit to protect the ball. while the player is looking for an outlay pass, an opponent, disregarding the fact that he is "from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent", still try to rob the ball from the ball holder, even though without significant body contact initially. But when both players strugle for the ball, significant body contact occurs.

in this situation, what call is preferred, held ball or a personal foul? if a foul call is preferred, when should the call be made, at the moment the opponent contacts the ball holder (even though it is minor), or only when severe body contact occurs?

Thanks.

Call the foul when the contact prevents normal offensive or defensive maneuvers.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by ysong
I need some help with a question about "unreasonable" steal:

after a player gets a defensive rebound, he holds the ball firmly against his chest with two hands (or arms), he also coils his uper body a little bit to protect the ball. while the player is looking for an outlay pass, an opponent, disregarding the fact that he is "from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent", still try to rob the ball from the ball holder, even though without significant body contact initially. But when both players strugle for the ball, significant body contact occurs.

in this situation, what call is preferred, held ball or a personal foul? if a foul call is preferred, when should the call be made, at the moment the opponent contacts the ball holder (even though it is minor), or only when severe body contact occurs?

Thanks.

Call the foul when the contact prevents normal offensive or defensive maneuvers.

I see, it is not a matter of how severe the contact is, but whether the ball handler's freedom is reduecd. Thanks, Bob.

Also, you believe this kind of steals are indeed considered unreasonable, and players should not attempt those, is that right?

Thanks.


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/B]
Call the foul when the contact prevents normal offensive or defensive maneuvers.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I forgot to ask what mechanics should be used? holding, illegal use of hand?

Thanks.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ysong
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Call the foul when the contact prevents normal offensive or defensive maneuvers.

[/B]
I forgot to ask what mechanics should be used? holding, illegal use of hand?

Thanks.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Whichever you prefer is fine but I'd probably use the hold.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 12:27pm
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I tend to call it, and I'll use the hold signal. (When I then get really funny looks, I'll explain that the guy from behind 'bearhugged' the offensive player.)

Unfortunately, a good number of my partners call this sort of play a held ball.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I tend to call it, and I'll use the hold signal. (When I then get really funny looks, I'll explain that the guy from behind 'bearhugged' the offensive player.)

Unfortunately, a good number of my partners call this sort of play a held ball.
Thanks for all the helpful answers.

but sorry, I just realized my quote of "from a unreasonable position" might be misleading. The case I have in mind is not the opponent from hehind and 'bearhugged the ball holder. I was asking the case that the both players face each other, but the ball holder's stance makes it clear the ball is impossible to be taken without taking the player with it.

Your answers would be the same, right?

Thanks.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 01:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ysong

I see, it is not a matter of how severe the contact is, but whether the ball handler's freedom is reduecd. Thanks, Bob.

Also, you believe this kind of steals are indeed considered unreasonable, and players should not attempt those, is that right?

Thanks.


players can attempt anything they want to...you're not going to call a foul because they attempted something you don't think they should attempt. Call the foul when they make enough contact to disrupt the play or cause the offensive player to lose control of the ball, etc...
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ysong
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I tend to call it, and I'll use the hold signal. (When I then get really funny looks, I'll explain that the guy from behind 'bearhugged' the offensive player.)

Unfortunately, a good number of my partners call this sort of play a held ball.
Thanks for all the helpful answers.

but sorry, I just realized my quote of "from a unreasonable position" might be misleading. The case I have in mind is not the opponent from hehind and 'bearhugged the ball holder. I was asking the case that the both players face each other, but the ball holder's stance makes it clear the ball is impossible to be taken without taking the player with it.

Your answers would be the same, right?

Thanks.
See rockyroad's answer - wait until there's contact that gains an advantage/puts someone else at a disadvantage, THEN call a foul.
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Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 02:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I tend to call it, and I'll use the hold signal. (When I then get really funny looks, I'll explain that the guy from behind 'bearhugged' the offensive player.)

Unfortunately, a good number of my partners call this sort of play a held ball.
I guess I fall into this category, then.

In these cases, I tend not to call a foul unless there is contact. Makes sense to me.

I will not penalize a good defensive play.

As described in the original play, more often than not, it's next to impossible for the player to tie it up without some kind of illegal contact. But you shouldn't anticipate it as such - periodically, the offensive player may move and allow the defender access enough to cause a tie-up. And you should call it as such.

If the defender is behind, wait to see what happens and take note of what's around - is there a press going on? Is it keeping the ball-handler from making a play?

Foul sounds good here, but don't be TOO quick on the whistle.


[Edited by canuckrefguy on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 04:01 PM]
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 03:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by ysong
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I tend to call it, and I'll use the hold signal. (When I then get really funny looks, I'll explain that the guy from behind 'bearhugged' the offensive player.)

Unfortunately, a good number of my partners call this sort of play a held ball.
Thanks for all the helpful answers.

but sorry, I just realized my quote of "from a unreasonable position" might be misleading. The case I have in mind is not the opponent from hehind and 'bearhugged the ball holder. I was asking the case that the both players face each other, but the ball holder's stance makes it clear the ball is impossible to be taken without taking the player with it.

Your answers would be the same, right?

Thanks.
See rockyroad's answer - wait until there's contact that gains an advantage/puts someone else at a disadvantage, THEN call a foul.
I'd say to not always wait for an obvious disadvantage, though.

If A1 has the ball securely wrapped up, as ysong describes, repeated swipes or slaps at the ball are usually going to lead to A1 throwing an elbow to get B1 off.

In this situation I usually do some preventive officiating with an, "Easy or straight up," directed at the defender and then I'll get the smack if they go back attacking the ball.

This falls under rough play, IMO, and I rather get a "cheap" foul here than have to clean up a big mess later by passing on some contact because it did not clearly disadvantage A1.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 04:05 PM]
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 09:49pm
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Unless the defender is able to grasp the ball cleanly (ball only) and prevent release (held ball), you will likely have a (holding) foul. Reaching for and grasping the ball with the hand and/or arm over or across the ball holder's wrist/arm, is a hold. These fouls are NOT held balls, and need to be called quickly and more often to reduce rough play. With experience, I have learned to recognize and call this "grabbing at the ball" before the elbows fly.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 11:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macaroo
Unless the defender is able to grasp the ball cleanly (ball only) and prevent release (held ball), you will likely have a (holding) foul. Reaching for and grasping the ball with the hand and/or arm over or across the ball holder's wrist/arm, is a hold. These fouls are NOT held balls, and need to be called quickly and more often to reduce rough play. With experience, I have learned to recognize and call this "grabbing at the ball" before the elbows fly.
I know what you're saying, but it's not as automatic as you're making it sound. We all know those situations where preventative officiating is needed - but just because a player has secured a ball does not mean defensive players cannot attempt to go after it, too.

As I stated earlier, most times defenders cannot get to the ball without hacking/holding/pushing. But there are times when they can - and sometimes it may appear to the coach/spectator like a foul - but isn't.

I like Rocky's answer - there's gotta be enough contact to disrupt - not just contact. With experience, you learn to differentiate the two.

Yes, you want to prevent the "elbows flying" - but a player also can't just start swinging elbows whenever an opponent goes after the ball, either.
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Old Fri Jun 03, 2005, 07:10am
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Old Fri Jun 03, 2005, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
I see a holding foul on Eddie Jones, but let's not call it because refs don't like Rasheed.
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