Player Game Entry

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.

Some around there would be right, IMO. The team is penalized if and when B5 enters the court at a different time than the rest. If B5 doesn't return, there is no penalty.

And that is what the above cited case says. If they wanted it to be immediately after 4 returned without the 5th, the play would not continue through a 3-point shot, a rebound, and a long pass to the just entering 5th player before the ruling.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If B5 doesn't return, there is no penalty.

I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time......


If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

I'm with Camron here.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time......


If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

I'm with Camron here.

What's the intent of the rule?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

What's the intent of the rule?

The intent is not to prevent them from playing with 4, there's already a rule for that. The intent is to prevent deceit, IMO.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

The intent is not to prevent them from playing with 4, there's already a rule for that. The intent is to prevent deceit, IMO.

Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?

No, just the rule that says they have to play with 5 if they're available.

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?

"My team is on the floor."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time.

Sounds good, but what defines the court?

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

I know that all team members are considered bench personnel during intermissions. This rule becomes important when deciding to charge, or not to charge, a coach with an indirect technical foul for technical fouls on players, or on bench personnel, during a timeout, or an intermission. Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, but what defines the court?

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

I know that all team members are considered bench personnel during intermissions. This rule becomes important when deciding to charge, or not to charge, a coach with an indirect technical foul for technical fouls on players, or on bench personnel, during a timeout, or an intermission. Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.

A player who was a player before the timeout remains a player during a timeout, I believe...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time. If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)? Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.

So do we let just another ref's post stand, or does it have to be adjusted? I'm not sure that rookie officials should be hanging their hats on just another ref's statement. Then again, I may be wrong. I have been wrong in the past. Lots of times.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

No. The Players are still Players and the Team Members are Team Members during a time out.

See 4.34.1

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No. The Players are still Players and the Team Members are Team Members during a time out.

SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court
at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.
ART. 4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform
and is eligible to become a player.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

Maybe I should have said: Aren't those on the team considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout if they were players before the timeout and not substituted for?

Bottom line, they don't have to be within the boundary lines (inbounds) of the court (blue line all the way around) to be considered players, as implied by just another ref's post:

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time ... If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

[just another ref]

In the OP, the timeout is over. If B5 is on the bench, he is not a player.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?

The "when they occur" is when the 5th "player" returns at a later time, not when the 4 players enter without the 4th. If only 4 return, all that did so did return at the same time.