The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2014, 04:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Player Game Entry

Here's the scenario I need help with: After a timeout, game play starts with one team only having 4 players on the court. Upon realizing they're short, a player runs out from the bench and joins the game. Is this an illegal substitution since there is not really a player swap? If not what is the call? Doesn't this present an opportunity for the 4 man team to sneak a player in to an open spot on the court?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2014, 06:46pm
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
You're going to have to specify under what rule set you're looking for an answer for.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2014, 07:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 1,198
10.3.2 SITUATION B:

After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and he/she sprints directly onto the court and catches up with the play.

RULING: No technical foul is charged to A5. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 03:57am
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Except the play in question occurs after a time out, not a lengthy substitution. Ergo, 10-1-9. T.
NFHS.
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call

Last edited by Freddy; Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 04:22am.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Orange, NJ
Posts: 2,583
Plus...you'll have the fun task of explaining to your supervisor why you let the game start with only four players on one team on the court.
__________________
"Everyone has a purpose in life, even if it's only to serve as a bad example."
"If Opportunity knocks and he's not home, Opportunity waits..."
"Don't you have to be stupid somewhere else?" "Not until 4."
"The NCAA created this mess, so let them live with it." (JRutledge)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:06am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Except the play in question occurs after a time out, not a lengthy substitution. Ergo, 10-1-9. T.
NFHS.
What if said situation occurs during multiple, lengthy, substitutions for both teams during the legal substitution "phase" of a time out, or intermission?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 07:10am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What if said situation occurs during multiple, lengthy, substitutions for both teams during the legal substitution "phase" of a time out, or intermission?
Subs have to be at the table by the warning horn, why would you be allowing a lengthy substitution to occur at that point?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 10:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: PG County, MD
Posts: 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezmcgowan View Post
Here's the scenario I need help with: After a timeout, game play starts with one team only having 4 players on the court. Upon realizing they're short, a player runs out from the bench and joins the game. Is this an illegal substitution since there is not really a player swap? If not what is the call? Doesn't this present an opportunity for the 4 man team to sneak a player in to an open spot on the court?
NFHS: 10-1
ART. 9

A team shall not:

Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Caseplay
10.1.9 SITUATION:

Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immed*iately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.
__________________
You learn something new everyday ...
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 03:35pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Lengthy ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Subs have to be at the table by the warning horn, why would you be allowing a lengthy substitution to occur at that point?
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution. And remember, as coaches are matching up their substitutes, a player doesn't have to play a tick, so some substitutes (players) may be withdrawn, which, or course, would make this whole situation even more confusing, and more likely to end up with the situation described in the original post.

Of course, PG_Ref's post makes my comment academic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PG_Ref View Post
NFHS: 10-1 ART. 9 A team shall not: Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.
Nice citation PG_Ref.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 03:43pm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:19pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
What If ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PG_Ref View Post
Caseplay 10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.
What if B5 doesn't enter?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:42pm
This IS My Social Life
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at L, T, or C
Posts: 2,379
Doesn't Matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What if B5 doesn't enter?
Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.
__________________
Making Every Effort to Be in the Right Place at the Right Time, Looking at the Right Thing to Make the Right Call
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 09:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.
Some around there would be right, IMO. The team is penalized if and when B5 enters the court at a different time than the rest. If B5 doesn't return, there is no penalty.

And that is what the above cited case says. If they wanted it to be immediately after 4 returned without the 5th, the play would not continue through a 3-point shot, a rebound, and a long pass to the just entering 5th player before the ruling.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 11:11pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution. And remember, as coaches are matching up their substitutes, a player doesn't have to play a tick, so some substitutes (players) may be withdrawn, which, or course, would make this whole situation even more confusing, and more likely to end up with the situation described in the original post.

Of course, PG_Ref's post makes my comment academic.



Nice citation PG_Ref.
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game?

Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 11:13pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 11:28pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game?

Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?
Yeah, I don't get it either. There is no reason a timeout should last more than 60 seconds, and substitutions are the least acceptable reason.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 06:19am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Horn Blows at Midnight ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game? Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution.
The forty-five seconds I'm referring to is the forty-five seconds before the warning horn. Three substitutes from Team A enter, while four substitutes from Team B enter, all at different times within the forty-five second period; I would call that a lengthy substitution process.

But the topic is academic because it's after a timeout.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
legal entry, substitution

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re-entry jkohls Basketball 7 Sun Mar 22, 2009 08:56pm
DH Re-entry upscout2000 Baseball 1 Sun Apr 08, 2007 02:33pm
DH Re-entry JL87 Baseball 8 Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:30pm
DH Re-entry harmbu Baseball 3 Tue Apr 30, 2002 02:34pm
DH re-entry PAblue87 Baseball 7 Fri Apr 27, 2001 11:21pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1