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Old Wed Sep 03, 2014, 04:37pm
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Player Game Entry

Here's the scenario I need help with: After a timeout, game play starts with one team only having 4 players on the court. Upon realizing they're short, a player runs out from the bench and joins the game. Is this an illegal substitution since there is not really a player swap? If not what is the call? Doesn't this present an opportunity for the 4 man team to sneak a player in to an open spot on the court?
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Old Wed Sep 03, 2014, 06:46pm
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You're going to have to specify under what rule set you're looking for an answer for.
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Old Wed Sep 03, 2014, 07:42pm
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10.3.2 SITUATION B:

After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and he/she sprints directly onto the court and catches up with the play.

RULING: No technical foul is charged to A5. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 03:57am
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Except the play in question occurs after a time out, not a lengthy substitution. Ergo, 10-1-9. T.
NFHS.
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Last edited by Freddy; Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 04:22am.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:03am
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Plus...you'll have the fun task of explaining to your supervisor why you let the game start with only four players on one team on the court.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Except the play in question occurs after a time out, not a lengthy substitution. Ergo, 10-1-9. T.
NFHS.
What if said situation occurs during multiple, lengthy, substitutions for both teams during the legal substitution "phase" of a time out, or intermission?
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 07:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What if said situation occurs during multiple, lengthy, substitutions for both teams during the legal substitution "phase" of a time out, or intermission?
Subs have to be at the table by the warning horn, why would you be allowing a lengthy substitution to occur at that point?
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 10:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezmcgowan View Post
Here's the scenario I need help with: After a timeout, game play starts with one team only having 4 players on the court. Upon realizing they're short, a player runs out from the bench and joins the game. Is this an illegal substitution since there is not really a player swap? If not what is the call? Doesn't this present an opportunity for the 4 man team to sneak a player in to an open spot on the court?
NFHS: 10-1
ART. 9

A team shall not:

Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Caseplay
10.1.9 SITUATION:

Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immed*iately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 03:35pm
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Lengthy ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Subs have to be at the table by the warning horn, why would you be allowing a lengthy substitution to occur at that point?
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution. And remember, as coaches are matching up their substitutes, a player doesn't have to play a tick, so some substitutes (players) may be withdrawn, which, or course, would make this whole situation even more confusing, and more likely to end up with the situation described in the original post.

Of course, PG_Ref's post makes my comment academic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PG_Ref View Post
NFHS: 10-1 ART. 9 A team shall not: Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.
Nice citation PG_Ref.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 03:43pm.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:19pm
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What If ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PG_Ref View Post
Caseplay 10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.
What if B5 doesn't enter?
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 06:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
What if B5 doesn't enter?
Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 09:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.
Some around there would be right, IMO. The team is penalized if and when B5 enters the court at a different time than the rest. If B5 doesn't return, there is no penalty.

And that is what the above cited case says. If they wanted it to be immediately after 4 returned without the 5th, the play would not continue through a 3-point shot, a rebound, and a long pass to the just entering 5th player before the ruling.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 11:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution. And remember, as coaches are matching up their substitutes, a player doesn't have to play a tick, so some substitutes (players) may be withdrawn, which, or course, would make this whole situation even more confusing, and more likely to end up with the situation described in the original post.

Of course, PG_Ref's post makes my comment academic.



Nice citation PG_Ref.
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game?

Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Sep 04, 2014 at 11:13pm.
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Old Thu Sep 04, 2014, 11:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game?

Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?
Yeah, I don't get it either. There is no reason a timeout should last more than 60 seconds, and substitutions are the least acceptable reason.
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Old Fri Sep 05, 2014, 06:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game? Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution.
The forty-five seconds I'm referring to is the forty-five seconds before the warning horn. Three substitutes from Team A enter, while four substitutes from Team B enter, all at different times within the forty-five second period; I would call that a lengthy substitution process.

But the topic is academic because it's after a timeout.
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