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ezmcgowan Wed Sep 03, 2014 04:37pm

Player Game Entry
 
Here's the scenario I need help with: After a timeout, game play starts with one team only having 4 players on the court. Upon realizing they're short, a player runs out from the bench and joins the game. Is this an illegal substitution since there is not really a player swap? If not what is the call? Doesn't this present an opportunity for the 4 man team to sneak a player in to an open spot on the court?

APG Wed Sep 03, 2014 06:46pm

You're going to have to specify under what rule set you're looking for an answer for.

SNIPERBBB Wed Sep 03, 2014 07:42pm

10.3.2 SITUATION B:

After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and he/she sprints directly onto the court and catches up with the play.

RULING: No technical foul is charged to A5. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court.

Freddy Thu Sep 04, 2014 03:57am

Except the play in question occurs after a time out, not a lengthy substitution. Ergo, 10-1-9. T.
NFHS.

JetMetFan Thu Sep 04, 2014 06:03am

Plus...you'll have the fun task of explaining to your supervisor why you let the game start with only four players on one team on the court.

BillyMac Thu Sep 04, 2014 06:06am

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 939710)
Except the play in question occurs after a time out, not a lengthy substitution. Ergo, 10-1-9. T.
NFHS.

What if said situation occurs during multiple, lengthy, substitutions for both teams during the legal substitution "phase" of a time out, or intermission?

Raymond Thu Sep 04, 2014 07:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 939713)
What if said situation occurs during multiple, lengthy, substitutions for both teams during the legal substitution "phase" of a time out, or intermission?

Subs have to be at the table by the warning horn, why would you be allowing a lengthy substitution to occur at that point?

PG_Ref Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ezmcgowan (Post 939694)
Here's the scenario I need help with: After a timeout, game play starts with one team only having 4 players on the court. Upon realizing they're short, a player runs out from the bench and joins the game. Is this an illegal substitution since there is not really a player swap? If not what is the call? Doesn't this present an opportunity for the 4 man team to sneak a player in to an open spot on the court?

NFHS: 10-1
ART. 9

A team shall not:

Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Caseplay
10.1.9 SITUATION:

Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immed*iately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

BillyMac Thu Sep 04, 2014 03:35pm

Lengthy ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 939717)
Subs have to be at the table by the warning horn, why would you be allowing a lengthy substitution to occur at that point?

Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution. And remember, as coaches are matching up their substitutes, a player doesn't have to play a tick, so some substitutes (players) may be withdrawn, which, or course, would make this whole situation even more confusing, and more likely to end up with the situation described in the original post.

Of course, PG_Ref's post makes my comment academic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PG_Ref (Post 939728)
NFHS: 10-1 ART. 9 A team shall not: Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.

Nice citation PG_Ref.

BillyMac Thu Sep 04, 2014 06:19pm

What If ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PG_Ref (Post 939728)
Caseplay 10.1.9 SITUATION: Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

What if B5 doesn't enter?

Freddy Thu Sep 04, 2014 06:42pm

Doesn't Matter
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 939747)
What if B5 doesn't enter?

Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.

Camron Rust Thu Sep 04, 2014 09:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 939748)
Some around here insist that, since team B is playing with only four players, they'd just let it play out; after all, why penalize a team that is, by playing only four players, penalizing themselves--that's the rationalization. However, they are without rules bases. Whether B5 enters late or not, the prescribed penalty in NFHS is a team T for this situation following an intermission or timeout.
I'm not saying I agree. Just stating what the rule says.

Some around there would be right, IMO. The team is penalized if and when B5 enters the court at a different time than the rest. If B5 doesn't return, there is no penalty.

And that is what the above cited case says. If they wanted it to be immediately after 4 returned without the 5th, the play would not continue through a 3-point shot, a rebound, and a long pass to the just entering 5th player before the ruling.

Raymond Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 939744)
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution. And remember, as coaches are matching up their substitutes, a player doesn't have to play a tick, so some substitutes (players) may be withdrawn, which, or course, would make this whole situation even more confusing, and more likely to end up with the situation described in the original post.

Of course, PG_Ref's post makes my comment academic.



Nice citation PG_Ref.

After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game?

Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?

Adam Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 939757)
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game?

Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?

Yeah, I don't get it either. There is no reason a timeout should last more than 60 seconds, and substitutions are the least acceptable reason.

BillyMac Fri Sep 05, 2014 06:19am

Horn Blows at Midnight ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 939757)
After the warning horn, and after the subs have legally entered the court, you're allowing coaches to take players off the bench and re-enter the game? Also, the legal substitution phase is PRIOR to the warning horn of a time-out. What lengthy process are you allowing to occur after the warning horn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 939744)
Some may consider several substitutions, by both teams, over forty-five seconds a "lengthy" substitution.

The forty-five seconds I'm referring to is the forty-five seconds before the warning horn. Three substitutes from Team A enter, while four substitutes from Team B enter, all at different times within the forty-five second period; I would call that a lengthy substitution process.

But the topic is academic because it's after a timeout.


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