Player Game Entry

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I deem that incorrect by virtue of the PENALTY stated at the end of 10-1: "(Art.3,4,5,8,9,10) Penalized when they occur."
Occurance would be whether B5 entered or not, given the wording of the rule.
Right?

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time......


If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

I'm with Camron here.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time......


If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

I'm with Camron here.

What's the intent of the rule?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

What's the intent of the rule?

The intent is not to prevent them from playing with 4, there's already a rule for that. The intent is to prevent deceit, IMO.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

The intent is not to prevent them from playing with 4, there's already a rule for that. The intent is to prevent deceit, IMO.

Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?

No, just the rule that says they have to play with 5 if they're available.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, just the rule that says they have to play with 5 if they're available.

I see that point based on 3-1, in regards to which 3.1.1 dictates: "Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available."

Therefore, is it not a logical, sound application of this same rule that, for instance, if a team is caught playing with only four players after a timeout or intermission, that they be then assessed a team technical if/when it is detected that they failed "...to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission"? Especially when that's what 10-1-9 actually says?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I see that point based on 3-1, in regards to which 3.1.1 dictates: "Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available."

Therefore, is it not a logical, sound application of this same rule that, for instance, if a team is caught playing with only four players after a timeout or intermission, that they be then assessed a team technical if/when it is detected that they failed "...to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission"? Especially when that's what 10-1-9 actually says?

Check local listings.

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Is there some other rule that prevents them from playing with 4 specifically after a timeout or intermission other than 10-1-9?

"My team is on the floor."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time.

Sounds good, but what defines the court?

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

I know that all team members are considered bench personnel during intermissions. This rule becomes important when deciding to charge, or not to charge, a coach with an indirect technical foul for technical fouls on players, or on bench personnel, during a timeout, or an intermission. Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, but what defines the court?

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

I know that all team members are considered bench personnel during intermissions. This rule becomes important when deciding to charge, or not to charge, a coach with an indirect technical foul for technical fouls on players, or on bench personnel, during a timeout, or an intermission. Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.

A player who was a player before the timeout remains a player during a timeout, I believe...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time. If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)? Let's not treat this too casually, it's important, so let's try to figure it out.

So do we let just another ref's post stand, or does it have to be adjusted? I'm not sure that rookie officials should be hanging their hats on just another ref's statement. Then again, I may be wrong. I have been wrong in the past. Lots of times.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

No. The Players are still Players and the Team Members are Team Members during a time out.

See 4.34.1

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No. The Players are still Players and the Team Members are Team Members during a time out.

SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court
at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.
ART. 4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform
and is eligible to become a player.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Aren't team members considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout (not an intermission)?

Maybe I should have said: Aren't those on the team considered players if they're sitting on the bench during a sixty second timeout if they were players before the timeout and not substituted for?

Bottom line, they don't have to be within the boundary lines (inbounds) of the court (blue line all the way around) to be considered players, as implied by just another ref's post:

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time ... If B5 does not enter the court, he isn't a player. So the 4 on the court in this case are all the players.

[just another ref]

In the OP, the timeout is over. If B5 is on the bench, he is not a player.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the OP, the timeout is over. If B5 is on the bench, he is not a player.

Assuming B5 was not an entering substitute, and was a player before the time out, and during the timeout (it's not an intermission), why is he no longer a player after the timeout out, even while sitting on the bench. I'm truly not trying to give anybody a hard time, I just want to understand the rule, including the definition of a player versus bench personnel. Pretend that I'm from Missouri. Citation please.