Timing question

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by walt

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

Time for you to spend more time studying rules. With a monitor you would be wrong.

A.R. 271. With zeros on the game clock, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting
and then after the foul, A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. A1’s try is:
1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.
RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the
expiration of time, the official shall use the monitor to determine
whether the foul and the try occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock.
1: When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading
of zeros on the game clock but the try was not released before the
reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the
monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on
the game clock as to when the foul occurred. When the officials
determine that time should be put back on the game clock , the
game has not ended and the goal shall count. When the time of the
foul cannot be determined, the official shall be permitted to put the
exact time back on the game clock when it can be determined as to
when the ball passed through the net. When it is determined with
the use of the monitor that both the foul and the try occurred before
the reading of zeros on the game clock, the foul shall be penalized
and the goal shall count.
2: Since the try was unsuccessful, the official shall use the monitor to
determine whether the foul occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before
the reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be
determined, the officials shall be permitted to put back on the game
clock the exact time as to when the foul occurred.
(Rule 11-3.1.a.1 and .3)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by walt

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

A while back, they (NFHS) had a lag time rule that indicated if one second or less expired after the whistle, it was not an error. They removed that for a reason. Even .1 second is an error that can be corrected if you know what to put back on.

[walt]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Time for you to spend more time studying rules. With a monitor you would be wrong.

A.R. 271. With zeros on the game clock, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting
and then after the foul, A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. A1’s try is:
1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.
RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the
expiration of time, the official shall use the monitor to determine
whether the foul and the try occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock.
1: When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading
of zeros on the game clock but the try was not released before the
reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the
monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on
the game clock as to when the foul occurred. When the officials
determine that time should be put back on the game clock , the
game has not ended and the goal shall count. When the time of the
foul cannot be determined, the official shall be permitted to put the
exact time back on the game clock when it can be determined as to
when the ball passed through the net. When it is determined with
the use of the monitor that both the foul and the try occurred before
the reading of zeros on the game clock, the foul shall be penalized
and the goal shall count.
2: Since the try was unsuccessful, the official shall use the monitor to
determine whether the foul occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before
the reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be
determined, the officials shall be permitted to put back on the game
clock the exact time as to when the foul occurred.
(Rule 11-3.1.a.1 and .3)

JohnnyD, as soon as I wrote the monitor quote, I did go back and pull out the book and I admit, when a monitor is present, you are correct. A.R. 35 covers it as well.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Unless I'm missing something, see Walt's and Jeff's answers at #2 and #3, respectively.

You are. Walt's and JEff's answers are incorrect.

[walt]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Walt ... if you have a monitor (as in the first version of the OP), you don't use the rule that starts with "without a monitor..." - you use the one that applies WITH a monitor - and you put the time back on the clock.

You are correct and that is why I did go back to the book. Without a monitor though, I still stand by awarding the free throws and not counting the basket. Maybe I am thinking real world and considering it so near the expiration of time that the timer could not stop the clock. When we are talking about having a whistle at .1 and expecting an immediate recognition by the officials and/or stopping the clock by the timer, I just cannot see ruling that a timing mistake. With a monitor, using NCAA rules, I concede that I am wrong, and thankful I don't do a lot of games with a monitor (yet, hopefully).

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You are. Walt's and JEff's answers are incorrect.

This is the situation to which I was replying, MD: "Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticeably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in."

With "no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock," how are their answers incorrect? In this scenario, a rapid sequence of events, you'd have no idea how much time to put back.

shot, foul--ok, official whistles the foul (shots awarded if outcome of game possibly affected)
buzzer--time expires
ball leaves the shooter's hands--after time has expired, so no basket

What is their error? If I'm missing something--and I'm being sincere, not sarcastic--please tell me what.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by LRZ

This is the situation to which I was replying, MD: "Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticeably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in."

With no knowledge of time on the clock, how are their answers incorrect? In this scenario, a rapid sequence of events, you'd have no idea how much time to put back.

shot, foul--ok, official whistles the foul (shots awarded if outcome of game possibly affected)
buzzer--time expires
ball leaves the shooter's hands--after time has expired, so no basket

What is their error? If I'm missing something--and I'm being sincere, not sarcastic--please tell me what.

Ah - I misunderstood that you were taking their answers to the first (which were wrong) and applying them to the second question (where they are now right). got it now.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by walt

You are correct and that is why I did go back to the book. Without a monitor though, I still stand by awarding the free throws and not counting the basket.

Got it. And yes, that's correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LRZ

This is the situation to which I was replying, MD: "Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticeably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in."

With "no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock," how are their answers incorrect? In this scenario, a rapid sequence of events, you'd have no idea how much time to put back.

shot, foul--ok, official whistles the foul (shots awarded if outcome of game possibly affected)
buzzer--time expires
ball leaves the shooter's hands--after time has expired, so no basket

What is their error? If I'm missing something--and I'm being sincere, not sarcastic--please tell me what.

There is technically an "error" even if it's not something that can be corrected.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Ah - I misunderstood that you were taking their answers to the first (which were wrong) and applying them to the second question (where they are now right). got it now.

Lawyers call this "nunc pro tunc" ("now for then" is the rough translation): the wrong answer then is the right answer now!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Lawyers call this "nunc pro tunc" ("now for then" is the rough translation): the wrong answer then is the right answer now!

I think I had nunc pro tunc at the Vietnamese Pho place yesterday.

[NoFussRef]

I am thinking this might not apply to OP as it appears to describe a live ball with clock winding down and the shot at .2 seconds remaining.

However, what would your ruling be if this occurred on a throw-in at .2 seconds?

5-2-5 . . . When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (. 3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.

NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

5-2-5 . . . When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (. 3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.

NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

This rule has absolutely nothing to do with anything we're talking about here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

OK ... now that we have (nearly) unanimous agreement on that ...

Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in.

I have the same ruling in both cases.

I am just going to know how much time there was between my whistle and the horn. I don't have to see a clock to know it (though it helps). We have counts all the time that we can use and this is no different. Remember, counts are, by definition, correct even if they are not precise. That is considered definite knowledge.

Count the bucket, report the foul, put time back on the clock, shoot 1, players on the lane.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I have the same ruling in both cases.

I am just going to know how much time there was between my whistle and the horn. I don't have to see a clock to know it (though it helps). We have counts all the time that we can use and this is no different. Remember, counts are, by definition, correct even if they are not precise. That is considered definite knowledge.

Count the bucket, report the foul, put time back on the clock, shoot 1, players on the lane.

We're always making what we know are partial adjustments:

Clock doesn't start, we have 6 seconds of a BC count, followed by a gap, followed by 3 seconds of a 5 second count, then we notice. We'll take off 9 seconds, even though we know more probably elapsed.

This makes me less uncomfortable putting, at minimum, .1 second on the clock if I have definite knowledge the foul was before the horn.