Timing question

[dahoopref]

A.R. 232. In a game without a courtside monitor, the score is tied when the
referee calls a shooting foul on Team A’s unsuccessful attempt:

(1) At approximately the same time as the game-clock horn sounds to end the game; or

(2) With four seconds remaining on the game clock�

RULING: (1) When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake has occurred and the official shall put time back on the clock as to when the foul was called. In this case, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game is over.

However, when the official signals for the clock to stop and it is so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock, this is not a timer’s mistake and time should not be placed back on the game clock. When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game shall be over.

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock. In the first case, time is put back on the game clock and in the second case, it is not.

(2) A1 shall be awarded two free throws. When A1 makes both free throws, Team B shall be awarded the ball out of bounds at the end line under Team A’s basket.

(Rule 10-1, Penalty d[1] and h)

[walt]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A.R. 232. In a game without a courtside monitor, the score is tied when the
referee calls a shooting foul on Team A’s unsuccessful attempt:

(1) At approximately the same time as the game-clock horn sounds to end the game; or

(2) With four seconds remaining on the game clock�

RULING: (1) When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake has occurred and the official shall put time back on the clock as to when the foul was called. In this case, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game is over.

However, when the official signals for the clock to stop and it is so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock, this is not a timer’s mistake and time should not be placed back on the game clock. When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game shall be over.

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock. In the first case, time is put back on the game clock and in the second case, it is not.

(2) A1 shall be awarded two free throws. When A1 makes both free throws, Team B shall be awarded the ball out of bounds at the end line under Team A’s basket.

(Rule 10-1, Penalty d[1] and h)

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by walt

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

It is a given that the foul occurred at .1 in the OP. So, theoretically, the whistle should sound instantly and the clock should stop on the whistle. So theoretically, you put the .1 back on the clock. Realistically, this probably won't happen without replay.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by walt

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

Time for you to spend more time studying rules. With a monitor you would be wrong.

A.R. 271. With zeros on the game clock, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting
and then after the foul, A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. A1’s try is:
1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.
RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the
expiration of time, the official shall use the monitor to determine
whether the foul and the try occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock.
1: When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading
of zeros on the game clock but the try was not released before the
reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the
monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on
the game clock as to when the foul occurred. When the officials
determine that time should be put back on the game clock , the
game has not ended and the goal shall count. When the time of the
foul cannot be determined, the official shall be permitted to put the
exact time back on the game clock when it can be determined as to
when the ball passed through the net. When it is determined with
the use of the monitor that both the foul and the try occurred before
the reading of zeros on the game clock, the foul shall be penalized
and the goal shall count.
2: Since the try was unsuccessful, the official shall use the monitor to
determine whether the foul occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before
the reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be
determined, the officials shall be permitted to put back on the game
clock the exact time as to when the foul occurred.
(Rule 11-3.1.a.1 and .3)

[walt]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Time for you to spend more time studying rules. With a monitor you would be wrong.

A.R. 271. With zeros on the game clock, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting
and then after the foul, A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. A1’s try is:
1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.
RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the
expiration of time, the official shall use the monitor to determine
whether the foul and the try occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock.
1: When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading
of zeros on the game clock but the try was not released before the
reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the
monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on
the game clock as to when the foul occurred. When the officials
determine that time should be put back on the game clock , the
game has not ended and the goal shall count. When the time of the
foul cannot be determined, the official shall be permitted to put the
exact time back on the game clock when it can be determined as to
when the ball passed through the net. When it is determined with
the use of the monitor that both the foul and the try occurred before
the reading of zeros on the game clock, the foul shall be penalized
and the goal shall count.
2: Since the try was unsuccessful, the official shall use the monitor to
determine whether the foul occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before
the reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be
determined, the officials shall be permitted to put back on the game
clock the exact time as to when the foul occurred.
(Rule 11-3.1.a.1 and .3)

JohnnyD, as soon as I wrote the monitor quote, I did go back and pull out the book and I admit, when a monitor is present, you are correct. A.R. 35 covers it as well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by walt

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

A while back, they (NFHS) had a lag time rule that indicated if one second or less expired after the whistle, it was not an error. They removed that for a reason. Even .1 second is an error that can be corrected if you know what to put back on.

[walt]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Walt ... if you have a monitor (as in the first version of the OP), you don't use the rule that starts with "without a monitor..." - you use the one that applies WITH a monitor - and you put the time back on the clock.

You are correct and that is why I did go back to the book. Without a monitor though, I still stand by awarding the free throws and not counting the basket. Maybe I am thinking real world and considering it so near the expiration of time that the timer could not stop the clock. When we are talking about having a whistle at .1 and expecting an immediate recognition by the officials and/or stopping the clock by the timer, I just cannot see ruling that a timing mistake. With a monitor, using NCAA rules, I concede that I am wrong, and thankful I don't do a lot of games with a monitor (yet, hopefully).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by walt

You are correct and that is why I did go back to the book. Without a monitor though, I still stand by awarding the free throws and not counting the basket.

Got it. And yes, that's correct.