The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 09:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 81
This happend in the Celtics game on Wed and I wondering how we would handle it in NFHS.

There was a violation (shot clock in this case) and the official blew his whistle and just after the whistle the horn sounded that the quarter had ended. The whistle and horn were close enough that I thought they could have just called it the end of the quarter but instead they put .6 seconds back on the clock and ran an inbounds play which resulted in a way off half court shot which they blew dead b/c there was not enough time to attempt a legal shot. The effort seemed like a waste, but I wouldn't want to seem lazy.

So the question is: if the horn sounds after the whistle is it logical to always assume there has to be some time left b/c the whistle should have stopped the clock?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 10:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 152
No. Check the time-lag rule on timers.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 10:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 195
I am answering this without benefit of a review of the rule book so don't burn me too bad if I'm wrong but here's how we should handle this:

If an official has definite knowledge of the time, we are to ask that the clock be reset to that time. However, there is a one second lag time exception that allows for the reaction time of the timer. If the difference in the time between you blowing the whistle and the clock is greater than 1 second, then we have the clock set to where you know it should be. If it is less than one second, we don't change anything.

For instance, if you blow your whistle at 00:00.9 and the horn sounds, the quarter is over. You don't change anything.

If, however, when you blow your whistle, the time is 00:01.1 and the horn sounds, you would ask that the timer set the clock back to 1.1. Note that we don't subtract the 1 second lag time and ask the timer to set it at .1. We only use that one second lag time to determine if we need a clock reset but once we determine it is needed, it is set to the proper time that we have definite knowledge of.

I know this is convoluted but I hope you can understand it.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 01:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 962
Send a message via AIM to Tim Roden
First of all there is no shot clock in the NFHS. Some states use a shot clock and they would go by NCAA rules on how to handle it. Second, if I have definite knowledge of a time lag, then I will put that time back on the clock.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:01pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,060
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Roden
First of all there is no shot clock in the NFHS. Some states use a shot clock and they would go by NCAA rules on how to handle it. Second, if I have definite knowledge of a time lag, then I will put that time back on the clock.
Tim,

There are about 3 States that use the Shot Clock as an experimental rule. I do not know all of them or if there are more, but he might be in one of those states.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 195
Of course, Tim's right on the no shot clock under Fed rules.I didn't pick up on the shot clock. It was a rough morning. I thought we were talking game clock.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
In the NCAA, and in Fed states that use the shot clock, you would not put time back on the clock. In fact the very same scenario is outlined in AR 33 on page 47 of the NCAA rulebook. In this situation, "shall the official put [time] back on the game clock? RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized by the official's whistle. The official's whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer's signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-12-12). The period ended with the violation."

In the Celtics' game, however, the officials followed the NBA's procedure.

Chuck
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
In the NCAA, and in Fed states that use the shot clock, you would not put time back on the clock. In fact the very same scenario is outlined in AR 33 on page 47 of the NCAA rulebook. In this situation, "shall the official put [time] back on the game clock? RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized by the official's whistle. The official's whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer's signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-12-12). The period ended with the violation."

In the Celtics' game, however, the officials followed the NBA's procedure.

Chuck
I know we recently had a thread on this, but I can't find
it. Maybe it was on that other board...or just a dream...or email...anyway, do you remember it?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,885
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Roden
First of all there is no shot clock in the NFHS. Some states use a shot clock and they would go by NCAA rules on how to handle it. Second, if I have definite knowledge of a time lag, then I will put that time back on the clock.
Tim,

There are about 3 States that use the Shot Clock as an experimental rule. I do not know all of them or if there are more, but he might be in one of those states.

Peace
I don't think any of them are using it as an approved experiment. Instead, they have independantly chosen to alter the rules for use in their state.

They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,104
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway.
That's kind of harsh, but I think it's essentially true.

Quote:
Originally posted by Slappy Dan the Man
I know we recently had a thread on this, but I can't find
it. Maybe it was on that other board...or just a dream...or email...anyway, do you remember it?
We emailed b/c it's a question on this year's test. And by the way, I am not real confident about some of my answers.

Chuck
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:58pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,060
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust

I don't think any of them are using it as an approved experiment. Instead, they have independantly chosen to alter the rules for use in their state.

They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway.
Camron,

The NF has many states doing experimental rules and the states using the Shot Clock is one of them. Illinois for example used an experimental mechanic one year and was used the next. We also are using an experimental rule last year and this year, it might be used in the future. None of those things Illinois are using are going against the NF. The NF suggested it.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 03:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias


...And by the way, I am not real confident about some of my answers.

Chuck
Wha!?!

Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 04:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,729
WOW,

Cameron:

Just a "baseball guy" dropping in from the "other" section and following a few threads -- sorry for the intrusion.

I wish you would re-think the following statement:

"I don't think any of them are using it as an approved experiment. Instead, they have independantly chosen to alter the rules for use in their state.

They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway."

FEDlandia has always tried to work with states on many different types of adjustment to the rules.

As an example The State of Washington has used a shot clock and no centerline in girls (women's) basketball for over 25 YEARS with the blessing of the NFHS.

As an example The State of Texas uses a version of NCAA rules for high school football with the full backing of the NFHS.

Massachuetts and Rhode Island play "The Official Rules of Baseball" rather than FEDlandia rules and still participate in many other FED actitities.

It is very easy to criticize from a distance however there are usually reasons and a process involved when states select to use only a portion of Fed rules in any sport.

I'll get the heck outta here now and back to baseball.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 05:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,885
Re: WOW,

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
Cameron:

Just a "baseball guy" dropping in from the "other" section and following a few threads -- sorry for the intrusion.

I wish you would re-think the following statement:

FEDlandia has always tried to work with states on many different types of adjustment to the rules.

As an example The State of Washington has used a shot clock and no centerline in girls (women's) basketball for over 25 YEARS with the blessing of the NFHS.
I'm certainly aware of this. Just because they've done it for 25 years doesn't mean it is with the blessings of the NFHS.

Quote:

As an example The State of Texas uses a version of NCAA rules for high school football with the full backing of the NFHS.

Massachuetts and Rhode Island play "The Official Rules of Baseball" rather than FEDlandia rules and still participate in many other FED actitities.

It is very easy to criticize from a distance however there are usually reasons and a process involved when states select to use only a portion of Fed rules in any sport.

I'll get the heck outta here now and back to baseball.
I've heard it from a very reliable source that some of the above states (not necessarily all) were not doing it with the "blessing" of the NFHS. Rather, they were not conforming to the NFHS rule and the NFHS wasn't taking much action about it. The only consequence that I heard was that the NFHS would not allow representives from states that do not use the official NFHS rules to be elected to the board/rules committee for that sport/activity.

They may allow them to use alternate rules...what could they really do about it any way...but they are no longer an NFHS state when they do so (for that sport).
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 05:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,885
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust

I don't think any of them are using it as an approved experiment. Instead, they have independantly chosen to alter the rules for use in their state.

They probably lobbied the NFHS to add it and were unsucessful and chose to thumb their noses at the NFHS and used one anyway.
Camron,

The NF has many states doing experimental rules and the states using the Shot Clock is one of them. Illinois for example used an experimental mechanic one year and was used the next. We also are using an experimental rule last year and this year, it might be used in the future. None of those things Illinois are using are going against the NF. The NF suggested it.

Peace
I agree that there are often expermiments that the NFHS approves and encourages. The shot clock may actually be one of the current ones. However, several states have been using the shot clock for many, many years. It has not been as an experiment but because they disagree with NFHS over the benefit or the need for one.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:28pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1