Fed timing question

[ljudge]

I think I may have done this incorrectly in the past (not sure). I was reading an NCAA ruling and it was a "ah-ha" experience when I realized the official ruling.

That play was something like this...

A's ball 4th and 3 on A's 15 yardline with 5 seconds remaining and needs a TD. Team A gains two yards and is tackled there with 2 seconds remaining. B was offside at the snap.

The ruling was a first down for team A after enforcement of the live-ball offside foul and the clock will start on the snap because you stopped the clock because you were awarding B a first down.

So in federation ball (let's tweak the foul b/c the same foul would be a dead-ball foul in high school) let's say team B committed a 5-yard facemask foul.

According to 3-4-2-b-3 I would say the enforcement is the same. Award A a first down and start the clock on the snap.

Correct ruling?

[Warrenkicker]

I'm not an NCAA official but I don't think you have it right for NF rules. A new series is awarded only after all actions during that down per 5-1-2 are taken into account. In this case B was not awarded a new series.

3-4-2a The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free-kick if the clock was stopped: For an official’s time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

5-1-2b A new series of downs is awarded: After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, except a non-player or unsportsmanlike foul.

There is, however, a minor difference between NCAA and NF rules for awarding untimed downs. Your defensive facemask penalty would not extend the period using NCAA rules but would probably result in an untimed down under NF rules.

[ljudge]

WK - good points you raise. This is why I asked the question. I'm certain I have been enforcing it the way you are saying but the reason I thought it was incorrect is because even in college you are NOT actually awarding B a first down, but the interpretation is you would be hadn't a foul occurred, and therefore, start on the snap.

I realize the untimed down rule would allow the extra down any way but it wouldn't come into play if the clock were to start on the snap.

Perhaps I'm reading to much into 3-4-2-b-3.

[Jim D]

The clock was stopped after this play because there was a foul - that's the key here. It might also have been stopped after the play for other reasons (to award a first down to either A or B depending on the results of the play) but the situation never got that far. The clock was stopped because a flag was on the ground.

After the penalty is administered, the clock is started on the ready because the action that stopped the clock was to administer a penalty and the action that caused the down to end (A being tacked in bounds) would not have otherwise caused the clock to stop.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: ljudge...the NCAA and Fed rules for this play are entirely different. In NCAA you start the clock on the snap because the play ended with the anticipation of awarding B a new series. In Fed, you must actually award the new series for the clock to start on the snap.

The idea of taking the foul out of the play and making the clock decision solely on the outcome of the play is OK for NCAA but will get you into trouble for Fed.

[ljudge]

Thanks all for the replies today. I see where your coming from and if I hadn't read this NCAA ruling I would have been OK for fed. But now I understand the difference. So again, thanks!

Now I get to UN-learn all the NCAA clock rules that I have been studying all this time.

Bob - headed to Kean Univ. at 5am tomorrow for our 2-day clinic. 13 hours of presentations and meetings tomorrow followed by more (including field work) on Saturday. I'll let you know how it works out.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY:
The idea of taking the foul out of the play and making the clock decision solely on the outcome of the play is OK for NCAA but will get you into trouble for Fed.

Bob, why would taking the foul out of the play get you in trouble for FED?

[MJT]

Jim, consider the following; 4th and 4 at B's 40 and A35 runs for three yards up the middle and B77 grabs but does not twists the runners face mask on the way down.
In NCAA, you will have the clock on the snap cuz B is going to be awarded a 1st down, even though they will not be cuz of the penalty. That is what Bob means "the anticipation of awarding B a new series."

As Bob says "in Fed, you must actually award the new series for the clock to start on the snap" after considering the effects of all penalties. So in the play I provided the clock will be on the RFP since the run ended IB's and A will continue their series.

[Jim D]

Maybe we're saying the same this but Bob's comment confused me. You have to consider the results of the play without the penalty first when deciding when to start the clock. Disregarding the penalty for a minute, the results of the play - tackled in bounds, ran out of bounds, incomplete pass, etc. are key in determining when the clock will start after the penalty enforcement. In any of the situations, if A ran out of bounds, regardless of awarding a new series to A or B or no one, the clock will start on the snap. Now, after you've looked at the results of the play, then you can add in any clock consideratons from the penalty.

[GregBar]

If you said that the defense encroached at the snap that is a dead ball foul in FED. A five yard penalty should have been assessed and first down on the 10 yard line. Also the 5 seconds should have been put back on the clock and clock starts on ready for play unless there was a reason for it to be dead by timeout, dropped pass or OOB on the previous play.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

On the play in question, without the foul we're awarding a new series to team B and therefore would start the clock on the snap. With the foul, we're starting on the ready.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Jim D...I suppose I could have said it a little better than I did. I probably should have said "may get you into trouble." What I mean is that if you decide to start the clock on the snap solely on what transpired in the play--absent the foul--you can make a mistake. Example: A's 2nd down pass is intercepted at midfield. Official flags B for defensive pass interference. Absent the foul the clock starts on the snap. And this would be correct for NCAA. But for Fed, the clock will start on the ready.