Endgame controversy in No VA

[deecee]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Is there a chance you would be fired if you made a monumental gaffe at your regular job? I would imagine so. I understand the outcome of a HS basketball game is probably insignificant when compared to what would happen if many of us made a huge mistake at our regular job, but there still needs to be an expectation that things are going to be handled correctly. This was a big mistake made by 3 officials on a very simple rule and play. The loss of a game or two and having a discussion with the members of an association is not a severe enough punishment for what happened.

If only this type of mentality is taken when financial institutions bring a country (and world) to a depression .

Yes, their screw up was major. But to get fired, I don't think so. Maybe X game suspension, plus being downgraded for a year or so. Comparing sports officials and hamburger flippers is apples to oranges.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

If only this type of mentality is taken when financial institutions bring a country (and world) to a depression .

Yes, their screw up was major. But to get fired, I don't think so. Maybe X game suspension, plus being downgraded for a year or so. Comparing sports officials and hamburger flippers is apples to oranges.

If this was a college game at the D1 level, the official would probably be fired from that league. It is not out of the total possibility that could or has happened in the past. Certainly they would have been suspended and in some cases for the rest of the year. Of course like anything in life, it would be based on who the individuals were and their officiating accomplishments. So a State Final guy might get a different penalty than a guy that is working is first year as a varsity official.

Let us not act like this has never happen for things like this in any other situation. And I am not suggesting that all officials should be fired. But something done would not surprise me or be a tragedy either. This is about as bad a mistake you can make and a team lost as a result. I read all the time about how officials are not held accountable by observers that are not officials. Well that is not entirely true, but this would not shock me if there was an example made out of these guys on some level. But to act shocked that is suggested is silly to me on many levels.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was a college game at the D1 level, the official would probably be fired from that league. It is not out of the total possibility that could or has happened in the past. Certainly they would have been suspended and in some cases for the rest of the year. Of course like anything in life, it would be based on who the individuals were and their officiating accomplishments. So a State Final guy might get a different penalty than a guy that is working is first year as a varsity official.

Let us not act like this has never happen for things like this in any other situation. And I am not suggesting that all officials should be fired. But something done would not surprise me or be a tragedy either. This is about as bad a mistake you can make and a team lost as a result. I read all the time about how officials are not held accountable by observers that are not officials. Well that is not entirely true, but this would not shock me if there was an example made out of these guys on some level. But to act shocked that is suggested is silly to me on many levels.

Peace

You are correct. I do think ANYTHING can happen to them and I wont be surprised. What I meant to say was that firing is overkill. If they were not ready for this type of game then shouldn't the penalty be shared with the person/people that put them there? I've seen people get fired for nothing, and others who should have been fired get a slap on the wrist. So I can tell you nothing surprises me. It hasn't for a long time.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by deecee

Or how about at the varsity level this should be known, ...

I could write a friggin' book on things that fit this. And it'd be thick.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was a college game at the D1 level, the official would probably be fired from that league.

Over the last few years there have been a number of mistakes made in D-1 games which we have discussed on this forum. Most of them were every bit as "egregious" as this mistake...having a hard time thinking of any of those officials who were dropped (fired) by the conference. Most were suspended and saw their schedules cut the following season...but fired?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Over the last few years there have been a number of mistakes made in D-1 games which we have discussed on this forum. Most of them were every bit as "egregious" as this mistake...having a hard time thinking of any of those officials who were dropped (fired) by the conference. Most were suspended and saw their schedules cut the following season...but fired?

You would have to be more specific about mistakes that were just as egregious. I cannot remember any quite on this level. But that being said I know of officials that were let go or not rehired from conferences for not so public reasons.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Over the last few years there have been a number of mistakes made in D-1 games which we have discussed on this forum. Most of them were every bit as "egregious" as this mistake...having a hard time thinking of any of those officials who were dropped (fired) by the conference. Most were suspended and saw their schedules cut the following season...but fired?

Most, if not all, of the D1 mistakes we have discussed on this forum were committed by individuals or crews made up of highly rated/high seniority guys. Perhaps their punishment, or lack thereof, was disappointing in its severity. Unfortunately the reality of any situation is that some people are more valuable to organizations than others and will not be treated/punished in the same manner as some other people would for the same activity. Those same mistakes, if made by new D1 hires or people on the bottom tier of the conference staff, would have resulted in a much different penalty.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Most, if not all, of the D1 mistakes we have discussed on this forum were committed by individuals or crews made up of highly rated/high seniority guys. Perhaps their punishment, or lack thereof, was disappointing in its severity. Unfortunately the reality of any situation is that some people are more valuable to organizations than others and will not be treated/punished in the same manner as some other people would for the same activity. Those same mistakes, if made by new D1 hires or people on the bottom tier of the conference staff, would have resulted in a much different penalty.

+1, and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think we all need to be treated equally in all things. Life is pretty much 100% grey.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Most, if not all, of the D1 mistakes we have discussed on this forum were committed by individuals or crews made up of highly rated/high seniority guys. Perhaps their punishment, or lack thereof, was disappointing in its severity. Unfortunately the reality of any situation is that some people are more valuable to organizations than others and will not be treated/punished in the same manner as some other people would for the same activity. Those same mistakes, if made by new D1 hires or people on the bottom tier of the conference staff, would have resulted in a much different penalty.

How do you know if those officials on that game weren't higher tier varsity guys in that area? Could be the same situation...

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich

How do you know if those officials on that game weren't higher tier varsity guys in that area? Could be the same situation...

Perhaps, but highly unlikely. I doubt 3 experienced, high tier, officials would make the mistake these guys made. The situation, what they needed to be thinking about, and the rule involved are way to simple for 3 guys of the caliber we are talking about to make this particular mistake. Especially if they were asked about it by one of the coaches literally seconds before the play occurred.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Perhaps, but highly unlikely. I doubt 3 experienced, high tier, officials would make the mistake these guys made. The situation, what they needed to be thinking about, and the rule involved are way to simple for 3 guys of the caliber we are talking about to make this particular mistake. Especially if they were asked about it by one of the coaches literally seconds before the play occurred.

A number of people have pointed out D1 officials – some of them very experienced – make mistakes, too. It happens.

I agree with Jeff’s comment regarding these officials being fired if this was a D1 game. The NCAA assignors I’ve had all have said the same thing: Everybody kicks calls. They won’t tolerate it if we kick a rule. This play involved kicking a rule.

For those who have asked whether this would’ve been just as egregious if the play was at the end of any of the other three quarters: yes it would because it involved kicking a rule. The only difference is they might have been able to get themselves out of it, especially if it happened at the end of the 2nd quarter since they would’ve had a ten-minute intermission to figure things out.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

For those who have asked whether this would’ve been just as egregious if the play was at the end of any of the other three quarters: yes it would because it involved kicking a rule. The only difference is they might have been able to get themselves out of it, especially if it happened at the end of the 2nd quarter since they would’ve had a ten-minute intermission to figure things out.

If you're talking about them taking the point off the board when they come back, they (for whatever reason according to NFHS) wouldn't be able to correct the mistake. Now whether they would follow this interpretation or "do the right thing" is a different matter...

NFHS 2010-2011 Interpretations

SITUATION 1: Three-tenths of a second remain on the clock in the second quarter. A1’s throw-in is “caught” by A2, released on a try, and the officials count the basket. The coaches do not protest, the officials do not confer and all participants head to their respective locker rooms. Upon returning to the court with three minutes remaining in the intermission, the opposing coach asks the officials if the basket should have counted since the ball was clearly caught and released with three-tenths of a second on the clock. The officials realize their error at this point. RULING: The goal counts; this is not a correctable-error situation as described in Rule 2-10. (2-10; 5-2-5)

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by APG

NFHS 2010-2011 Interpretations

SITUATION 1: ....The coaches do not protest...

And there it is...I do not know if the Coach protested or not in this OP...

but, again, if there is a proper protest...our State Powers will look at it and determine what should be done. (if anything)

(regardless if johnny d thinks it is silly or not)

[ODog]

Originally Posted by APG

If you're talking about them taking the point off the board when they come back, they (for whatever reason according to NFHS) wouldn't be able to correct the mistake. Now whether they would follow this interpretation or "do the right thing" is a different matter...

NFHS 2010-2011 Interpretations

SITUATION 1: Three-tenths of a second remain on the clock in the second quarter. A1’s throw-in is “caught” by A2, released on a try, and the officials count the basket. The coaches do not protest, the officials do not confer and all participants head to their respective locker rooms. Upon returning to the court with three minutes remaining in the intermission, the opposing coach asks the officials if the basket should have counted since the ball was clearly caught and released with three-tenths of a second on the clock. The officials realize their error at this point. RULING: The goal counts; this is not a correctable-error situation as described in Rule 2-10. (2-10; 5-2-5)

I can't believe that was ever an interpretation. That is absolutely a CE and well within the window.

I know (hope) everyone here would "do the right thing."

[RookieDude]

Does this interp tell us that "control" is a judgement call?

...Not a "rule" being inadvertently set aside?

It is the only thing I can come up with as to why it is not a CE...or why the powers that be in Virginia would/could not hear a protest concerning the OP.

Something to think about.