Endgame controversy in No VA

[grunewar]

My Association. Long discussion at the Meeting the other night. In this day and age of videos and social media, there is no hiding. We blew it. We are moving on as best we can and going forward.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by grunewar

My Association. Long discussion at the Meeting the other night. In this day and age of videos and social media, there is no hiding. We blew it. We are moving on as best we can and going forward.

Step one, fire the officials working the game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Step one, fire the officials working the game.

Yep, their entire careers should end because of a single mistake.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yep, their entire careers should end because of a single mistake.

One egregious mistake. Further, I did not say that their "careers" should end. They can go to camps next summer, prove themselves competent again, reapply, and start working their way back up from the bottom of the ladder.

Around here, these three guys would have a difficult time finding an assignment chair willing to have them work varsity basketball games for this mistake. In the college conferences I work, I can say for sure they would be removed, probably permanently, from staff for this mistake.

When I first started officiating, there was a fairly well established varsity official who made an egregious rule mistake in a game and he never worked another varsity game. Non-shooting foul called against V1. H is not in the bonus and foul by V1 is sixth team foul. V coach complains about the call and gets technical. H coach convinces referee on the game that they should get to shoot the 1 and 1 as well as 2 free throws for the T because V team now has 7 team fouls. The referee, ignoring the advice of his two partners, decided that the H coach is correct and allows H to shoot 4 free throws. The referee never worked another HS varsity game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnny d

One egregious mistake. Further, I did not say that their "careers" should end. They can go to camps next summer, prove themselves competent again, reapply, and start working their way back up from the bottom of the ladder.

Around here, these three guys would have a difficult time finding an assignment chair willing to have them work varsity basketball games for this mistake. In the college conferences I work, I can say for sure they would be removed, probably permanently, from staff for this mistake.

When I first started officiating, there was a fairly well established varsity official who made an egregious rule mistake in a game and he never worked another varsity game. Non-shooting foul called against V1. H is not in the bonus and foul by V1 is sixth team foul. V coach complains about the call and gets technical. H coach convinces referee on the game that they should get to shoot the 1 and 1 as well as 2 free throws for the T because V team now has 7 team fouls. The referee, ignoring the advice of his two partners, decided that the H coach is correct and allows H to shoot 4 free throws. The referee never worked another HS varsity game.

I've seen an official allow a team to score the winning basket with 6 men on the court and go on to be an alternate at the Final Four.

The Referee Death Penalty must be a regional thing.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnny d

One egregious mistake. Further, I did not say that their "careers" should end. They can go to camps next summer, prove themselves competent again, reapply, and start working their way back up from the bottom of the ladder.

Around here, these three guys would have a difficult time finding an assignment chair willing to have them work varsity basketball games for this mistake. In the college conferences I work, I can say for sure they would be removed, probably permanently, from staff for this mistake.

When I first started officiating, there was a fairly well established varsity official who made an egregious rule mistake in a game and he never worked another varsity game. Non-shooting foul called against V1. H is not in the bonus and foul by V1 is sixth team foul. V coach complains about the call and gets technical. H coach convinces referee on the game that they should get to shoot the 1 and 1 as well as 2 free throws for the T because V team now has 7 team fouls. The referee, ignoring the advice of his two partners, decided that the H coach is correct and allows H to shoot 4 free throws. The referee never worked another HS varsity game.

You're kidding yourself if you think that isn't ending their careers. But, if you can find the referee who has never made a rules mistake, he can be the one to fire them. Go ahead; I'll wait.

[egj13]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You're kidding yourself if you think that isn't ending their careers. But, if you can find the referee who has never made a rules mistake, he can be the one to fire them. Go ahead; I'll wait.

Amen. I was telling a buddy of mine the other day that was ALL over a ref from his kid's game. I said look man, please remember that that dude probably worked a 10 hour day today, reorganized his schedule to leave early from work, drove who knows how far one way and spent time away from his family for what reason? So that your kid can chase his dream of playing basketball in highschool. Lay off him and remember that if he decided he has heard enough from parents like you yoru kids dreams will go out the same door the offical quits through.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yep, their entire careers should end because of a single mistake.

Yep.

Sort of like having a "do over" in an NCAA men's game a few seasons back.

Oh wait...those guys are all 3 still working. One has worked the NCAA tournament the last two seasons after making that screw-up.

Anyone who would say that officials should be fired for making a mistake is either incredibly arrogant or incredibly dumb. Or maybe both?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yep.

Sort of like having a "do over" in an NCAA men's game a few seasons back.

Oh wait...those guys are all 3 still working. One has worked the NCAA tournament the last two seasons after making that screw-up.

Anyone who would say that officials should be fired for making a mistake is either incredibly arrogant or incredibly dumb. Or maybe both?

When the person making your hamburger at McDonalds makes a mistake they can be fired easily because there are another 20 million illegal aliens here ready to take his place. When the CEO at McDonalds makes a mistake, he isn't so easily fired because the number of people qualified to do is job is much smaller. You can walk into any number of middle school and rec league gyms to find guys who can officiate and not make the mistake these three guys did.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnny d

When the person making your hamburger at McDonalds makes a mistake they can be fired easily because there are another 20 million illegal aliens here ready to take his place. When the CEO at McDonalds makes a mistake, he isn't so easily fired because the number of people qualified to do is job is much smaller. You can walk into any number of middle school and rec league gyms to find guys who can officiate and not make the mistake these three guys did.

I believe your estimate of the number of quality officials is somewhat skewed. And if you're saying that anyone who has made a mistake on the court is unfit to work, then what you're looking for are perfect officials - and those are less common than McDonald CEO's ... as in - I don't believe any of us has ever met one.

Lighten up a bit, Francis.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I believe your estimate of the number of quality officials is somewhat skewed. And if you're saying that anyone who has made a mistake on the court is unfit to work, then what you're looking for are perfect officials - and those are less common than McDonald CEO's ... as in - I don't believe any of us has ever met one.

Lighten up a bit, Francis.

I am not looking for the perfect official at all. Mistakes happen. This mistake is an egregious mistake and the consequences for those officials should be more severe than normal, up to and including being removed from the staff.

[JRutledge]

They could be fired from that league or working for that association. Not sure why that is such a shocking thing to suggest. It was a very bad error and why it happen still baffles me. Someone should have saved this crew. Many have been fired for much less for sure.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

They could be fired from that league or working for that association. Not sure why that is such a shocking thing to suggest. It was a very bad error and why it happen still baffles me. Someone should have saved this crew. Many have been fired for much less for sure.

Peace

It's not shocking. I've been fired from a HS league for properly penalizing unsportsmanlike conduct -- I didn't even make a mistake and I got fired. Our hiring is a bit different (you and I have similar situations, I think). I lose a league, I find another one to work. Others have associations that do all the assigning -- if they lose that avenue to get games, their careers come to a halt. Or they move.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

When the person making your hamburger at McDonalds makes a mistake they can be fired easily because there are another 20 million illegal aliens here ready to take his place. When the CEO at McDonalds makes a mistake, he isn't so easily fired because the number of people qualified to do is job is much smaller. You can walk into any number of middle school and rec league gyms to find guys who can officiate and not make the mistake these three guys did.

I used to run a McDonald's when I was in college. I could teach someone to make a hamburger in a few minutes. It takes years for someone to become a good, varsity-quality official. I have no clue how good these officials are, but someone felt they were capable of working this game.

You're willing to throw away 3 careers built up over years because of a (regrettable) mistake?

I like to think I won't make a monumental gaffe in my game tonight. But I'm human and it could happen. If it does, it means I should throw away 27 years of work and find something else to do?

There's an old phrase..."There but for the grace of God go I..."

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich

I used to run a McDonald's when I was in college. I could teach someone to make a hamburger in a few minutes. It takes years for someone to become a good, varsity-quality official. I have no clue how good these officials are, but someone felt they were capable of working this game.

You're willing to throw away 3 careers built up over years because of a (regrettable) mistake?

I like to think I won't make a monumental gaffe in my game tonight. But I'm human and it could happen. If it does, it means I should throw away 27 years of work and find something else to do?

There's an old phrase..."There but for the grace of God go I..."

Is there a chance you would be fired if you made a monumental gaffe at your regular job? I would imagine so. I understand the outcome of a HS basketball game is probably insignificant when compared to what would happen if many of us made a huge mistake at our regular job, but there still needs to be an expectation that things are going to be handled correctly. This was a big mistake made by 3 officials on a very simple rule and play. The loss of a game or two and having a discussion with the members of an association is not a severe enough punishment for what happened.