A bit of a mess at an Indiana HS game

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Adam

In a fight situation, the HC gets to come out to tend to his players and help prevent/stop the fight. If he does anything else, particularly engaging the opponents in an adversarial manner, he gets a flagrant T.
All of his assistants that came on the court get tossed as well.

Initial foul on green: two shots (assuming bonus).
Double flagrant on the initial two participants. (no shots)
Four flagrant technical fouls on white for what seems to be the entire coaching staff coming onto the court (they all, at some point, antagonized the situation), so the HC doesn't get a break. Not that it would really matter, other than the difference between 6 and 8 FTs: but the HC will be ejected anyway due to the three indirect Ts he gets for his assistant coaches coming onto the court. I've got 8 free throws for green.
One FTF on the green coach due to his engagement with the white coaching staff. Sadly, I can't tell how many of these other people are coaches for green since they. Any of them who are coaches also get Ts. So, at the very least, the HC is done, and green gets two fewer FTs, down to 6.

The officials really should have done everything they could to clear the court and keep a neutral zone between the benches. White's player was down in her own FC, so she could have been tended to without any coaches talking to each other.

So: Two shots for white.
Eight shots for green.
Ball to green at half court (if there are any coaches left for white and/or green).

I'd also be tempted to call a FTF on W35 for her half-assed shove of G2 while G11 was doing the right thing and pushing her away, but I'd probably not do it.

[Sharpshooternes]

One thing the officials did right was keep track of the ball.

[RookieDude]

I can't imagine NOT whacking the white player, for a shove to the chest of the green player.

In a game I am officiating...if a player contacts another player in the way this player initially did...It's Tea Time...blowing whistle hard...looking confident in my decision. (Hopefully)

For you officials that let H.S. players shove each other (even if it's just a simple "get out of my way") IMO you might want to re-think these actions.

Sidenote: Most of us would probably whack the player if she/he just taunted the other player...why not then the T for contact? C'mon man.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

I can't imagine NOT whacking the white player, for a shove to the chest of the green player.

In a game I am officiating...if a player contacts another player in the way this player initially did...It's Tea Time...blowing whistle hard...looking confident in my decision. (Hopefully)

For you officials that let H.S. players shove each other (even if it's just a simple "get out of my way") IMO you might want to re-think these actions.

Sidenote: Most of us would probably whack the player if she/he just taunted the other player...why not then the T for contact? C'mon man.

I agree 100%. There is no way I'm letting this go no matter what preceded it. This will never get a warning from me. It will always be a T. If it isn't a T at what point are you drawing the line. How hard does the shove need to be?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I agree 100%. There is no way I'm letting this go no matter what preceded it. This will never get a warning from me. It will always be a T. If it isn't a T at what point are you drawing the line. How hard does the shove need to be?

Are you talking about the hypothetical where her actions did not cause a fight?

As I noted before, if this had been the first sign of anything, I could see a quick (and concise) chat. If we'd already had that chat, it's an easy T. I'd have no problem backing a partner who skipped the chat, though.

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by Adam

Are you talking about the hypothetical where her actions did not cause a fight?

As I noted before, if this had been the first sign of anything, I could see a quick (and concise) chat. If we'd already had that chat, it's an easy T. I'd have no problem backing a partner who skipped the chat, though.

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

Yes I am saying if this is the only action. I don't like giving warning for unsportsmanlike activities. I don't understand why we would warn or this when we would call a travel on the first offense.

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

The white team is the highest ranked 1A (lowest division) girls team in the state, and was undefeated. The green team is a fairly high ranked 4A (highest division) school. Coupled with the jersey retirement ceremony for Skylar Diggins, both teams had a lot to prove.

An IHSAA commissioner said "The game officials assessed the proper penalty of ejection" but I doubt if they will comment on the management of the game up to that point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The white team is the highest ranked 1A (lowest division) girls team in the state, and was undefeated. The green team is a fairly high ranked 4A (highest division) school. Coupled with the jersey retirement ceremony for Skylar Diggins, both teams had a lot to prove.

An IHSAA commissioner said "The game officials assessed the proper penalty of ejection" but I doubt if they will comment on the management of the game up to that point.

Were both players DQed?

[referee99]

UPDATE: Saturday's girls basketball brawl in the hands of the IHSAA

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Initial foul on green: two shots (assuming bonus).
Double flagrant on the initial two participants. (no shots)
Four flagrant technical fouls on white for what seems to be the entire coaching staff coming onto the court (they all, at some point, antagonized the situation), so the HC doesn't get a break. Not that it would really matter, other than the difference between 6 and 8 FTs: but the HC will be ejected anyway due to the three indirect Ts he gets for his assistant coaches coming onto the court. I've got 8 free throws for green.
One FTF on the green coach due to his engagement with the white coaching staff. Sadly, I can't tell how many of these other people are coaches for green since they. Any of them who are coaches also get Ts. So, at the very least, the HC is done, and green gets two fewer FTs, down to 6.

The officials really should have done everything they could to clear the court and keep a neutral zone between the benches. White's player was down in her own FC, so she could have been tended to without any coaches talking to each other.

So: Two shots for white.
Eight shots for green.
Ball to green at half court (if there are any coaches left for white and/or green).

I'd also be tempted to call a FTF on W35 for her half-assed shove of G2 while G11 was doing the right thing and pushing her away, but I'd probably not do it.

May I suggest that you review the following as to number of FTs awarded and number of indirect Ts charged.

Rule 10, Section 4
ART. 5

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:

Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out.

NOTE: The head coach may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out – or has broken out – to prevent the situation from escalating.

PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of offenders. This one foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach. If the head coach is an offender, an additional flagrant technical foul is charged directly to the coach and penalized. When a simultaneous technical foul(s) by opponents occurs, the free throws are not awarded when the penalties offset.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

May I suggest that you review the following as to number of FTs awarded and number of indirect Ts charged.

Rule 10, Section 4
ART. 5

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:

Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out.

NOTE: The head coach may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out – or has broken out – to prevent the situation from escalating.

PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of offenders. This one foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach. If the head coach is an offender, an additional flagrant technical foul is charged directly to the coach and penalized. When a simultaneous technical foul(s) by opponents occurs, the free throws are not awarded when the penalties offset.

Doh! I forgot to subtract the two shots from green's total due to their HC's FTF (I noted it, just forgot to deduct at the end).

Two shots for white.
Six shots for green.

Green ball.

I think where I may have this wrong is with considering the ACs' participation to be direct. I don't consider them to have merely entered the court. I know they didn't actually throw any punches or touch any opponents, so I may have this wrong. In that case:

White gets two shots.
Green gets two shots and the ball (assuming none of the other knuckleheads milling around the court were green coaches.)
All visible coaches are ejected.

Is this where you were headed?

[Nevadaref]

The second portion is closest to how I would administer this. Basic principle is cancel as many FTs as possible, except one can't offset those due to a personal foul with those due to technical.

Lastly, the woman in green who immediately runs out onto the court is costing her side a team technical foul and getting ejected from the gym. I still strongly believe that spectators have no business coming onto the court during a game.
If we can pinpoint any others who aren't game admin or trainers, the same applies to them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The second portion is closest to how I would administer this. Basic principle is cancel as many FTs as possible, except one can't offset those due to a personal foul with those due to technical.

Lastly, the woman in green who immediately runs out onto the court is costing her side a team technical foul and getting ejected from the gym. I still strongly believe that spectators have no business coming onto the court during a game.
If we can pinpoint any others who aren't game admin or trainers, the same applies to them.

I'm only getting the coaches and/or bench personal for this, but I will have spectators like that woman removed. I'll track the bench personnel and let GM deal with the crowd. If they can't handle that, then that'll be part of my report to the association and the state (and likely in the new thread I start on here). We'll have enough Technical fouls with the coaches coming on here.

I'm still likely to have considered the coaches to have participated in the fight by verbally antagonizing the opponents, and there will be two free throws for each one; obviously canceling out as many as possible to the point where we only have one team shooting technical foul shots.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm still likely to have considered the coaches to have participated in the fight by verbally antagonizing the opponents, and there will be two free throws for each one; obviously canceling out as many as possible to the point where we only have one team shooting technical foul shots.

In my opinion participation in an altercation by bench personnel requires physical interaction.
As for others, the message must be clearly sent and understood at the HS level that the court is a no fly zone for anyone with a team, but the players and head coaches (plus possibly a trainer in a severe injury situation). This is a safety issue. The officials and players can't have random people entering the court. It needs to be made clear that immediate expulsion from the event is the consequence and I also support penalizing the associated team, if the affiliation is clear.

[JRutledge]

I am not penalizing any fan coming onto the court just because they enter the court. Leave that up to the administrators to take care of that kind of thing. And in some cases those coming onto the court are administrators or school personnel. Heck in some cases they might be actual security like a police officer.

Peace