A bit of a mess at an Indiana HS game

[ballgame99]

I've got a T on white, and a flagrant T and ejection for green, bench T on white for assistants all over the floor, and a T for white's head coach for his taunting actions, possibly even an ejection depending on what he was yelling. Also see some green assistants out there, so give them a bench T as well. Green head coach seemed to behave himself.

I'm sure I'm wrong on some of this, but that is what I would have.

In the scenario above you have the initial common foul on green that you need to shoot for (if in bonus), the two player technicals cancel, the two bench Ts cancel, Green is shooting two technical free throws for the tech on white coach, green ball at division line.

OK, now tell me where I screwed up...

edit to add: thanks Jets for adding that video, I was late to the party and missed it the first time.

[Adam]

In a fight situation, the HC gets to come out to tend to his players and help prevent/stop the fight. If he does anything else, particularly engaging the opponents in an adversarial manner, he gets a flagrant T.
All of his assistants that came on the court get tossed as well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Adam

In a fight situation, the HC gets to come out to tend to his players and help prevent/stop the fight. If he does anything else, particularly engaging the opponents in an adversarial manner, he gets a flagrant T.
All of his assistants that came on the court get tossed as well.

Initial foul on green: two shots (assuming bonus).
Double flagrant on the initial two participants. (no shots)
Four flagrant technical fouls on white for what seems to be the entire coaching staff coming onto the court (they all, at some point, antagonized the situation), so the HC doesn't get a break. Not that it would really matter, other than the difference between 6 and 8 FTs: but the HC will be ejected anyway due to the three indirect Ts he gets for his assistant coaches coming onto the court. I've got 8 free throws for green.
One FTF on the green coach due to his engagement with the white coaching staff. Sadly, I can't tell how many of these other people are coaches for green since they. Any of them who are coaches also get Ts. So, at the very least, the HC is done, and green gets two fewer FTs, down to 6.

The officials really should have done everything they could to clear the court and keep a neutral zone between the benches. White's player was down in her own FC, so she could have been tended to without any coaches talking to each other.

So: Two shots for white.
Eight shots for green.
Ball to green at half court (if there are any coaches left for white and/or green).

I'd also be tempted to call a FTF on W35 for her half-assed shove of G2 while G11 was doing the right thing and pushing her away, but I'd probably not do it.

[Sharpshooternes]

One thing the officials did right was keep track of the ball.

[RookieDude]

I can't imagine NOT whacking the white player, for a shove to the chest of the green player.

In a game I am officiating...if a player contacts another player in the way this player initially did...It's Tea Time...blowing whistle hard...looking confident in my decision. (Hopefully)

For you officials that let H.S. players shove each other (even if it's just a simple "get out of my way") IMO you might want to re-think these actions.

Sidenote: Most of us would probably whack the player if she/he just taunted the other player...why not then the T for contact? C'mon man.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

I can't imagine NOT whacking the white player, for a shove to the chest of the green player.

In a game I am officiating...if a player contacts another player in the way this player initially did...It's Tea Time...blowing whistle hard...looking confident in my decision. (Hopefully)

For you officials that let H.S. players shove each other (even if it's just a simple "get out of my way") IMO you might want to re-think these actions.

Sidenote: Most of us would probably whack the player if she/he just taunted the other player...why not then the T for contact? C'mon man.

I agree 100%. There is no way I'm letting this go no matter what preceded it. This will never get a warning from me. It will always be a T. If it isn't a T at what point are you drawing the line. How hard does the shove need to be?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I agree 100%. There is no way I'm letting this go no matter what preceded it. This will never get a warning from me. It will always be a T. If it isn't a T at what point are you drawing the line. How hard does the shove need to be?

Are you talking about the hypothetical where her actions did not cause a fight?

As I noted before, if this had been the first sign of anything, I could see a quick (and concise) chat. If we'd already had that chat, it's an easy T. I'd have no problem backing a partner who skipped the chat, though.

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Initial foul on green: two shots (assuming bonus).
Double flagrant on the initial two participants. (no shots)
Four flagrant technical fouls on white for what seems to be the entire coaching staff coming onto the court (they all, at some point, antagonized the situation), so the HC doesn't get a break. Not that it would really matter, other than the difference between 6 and 8 FTs: but the HC will be ejected anyway due to the three indirect Ts he gets for his assistant coaches coming onto the court. I've got 8 free throws for green.
One FTF on the green coach due to his engagement with the white coaching staff. Sadly, I can't tell how many of these other people are coaches for green since they. Any of them who are coaches also get Ts. So, at the very least, the HC is done, and green gets two fewer FTs, down to 6.

The officials really should have done everything they could to clear the court and keep a neutral zone between the benches. White's player was down in her own FC, so she could have been tended to without any coaches talking to each other.

So: Two shots for white.
Eight shots for green.
Ball to green at half court (if there are any coaches left for white and/or green).

I'd also be tempted to call a FTF on W35 for her half-assed shove of G2 while G11 was doing the right thing and pushing her away, but I'd probably not do it.

May I suggest that you review the following as to number of FTs awarded and number of indirect Ts charged.

Rule 10, Section 4
ART. 5

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:

Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out.

NOTE: The head coach may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out – or has broken out – to prevent the situation from escalating.

PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of offenders. This one foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach. If the head coach is an offender, an additional flagrant technical foul is charged directly to the coach and penalized. When a simultaneous technical foul(s) by opponents occurs, the free throws are not awarded when the penalties offset.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

May I suggest that you review the following as to number of FTs awarded and number of indirect Ts charged.

Rule 10, Section 4
ART. 5

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:

Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out.

NOTE: The head coach may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out – or has broken out – to prevent the situation from escalating.

PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of offenders. This one foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach. If the head coach is an offender, an additional flagrant technical foul is charged directly to the coach and penalized. When a simultaneous technical foul(s) by opponents occurs, the free throws are not awarded when the penalties offset.

Doh! I forgot to subtract the two shots from green's total due to their HC's FTF (I noted it, just forgot to deduct at the end).

Two shots for white.
Six shots for green.

Green ball.

I think where I may have this wrong is with considering the ACs' participation to be direct. I don't consider them to have merely entered the court. I know they didn't actually throw any punches or touch any opponents, so I may have this wrong. In that case:

White gets two shots.
Green gets two shots and the ball (assuming none of the other knuckleheads milling around the court were green coaches.)
All visible coaches are ejected.

Is this where you were headed?

[Nevadaref]

The second portion is closest to how I would administer this. Basic principle is cancel as many FTs as possible, except one can't offset those due to a personal foul with those due to technical.

Lastly, the woman in green who immediately runs out onto the court is costing her side a team technical foul and getting ejected from the gym. I still strongly believe that spectators have no business coming onto the court during a game.
If we can pinpoint any others who aren't game admin or trainers, the same applies to them.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The second portion is closest to how I would administer this. Basic principle is cancel as many FTs as possible, except one can't offset those due to a personal foul with those due to technical.

Lastly, the woman in green who immediately runs out onto the court is costing her side a team technical foul and getting ejected from the gym. I still strongly believe that spectators have no business coming onto the court during a game.
If we can pinpoint any others who aren't game admin or trainers, the same applies to them.

I'm only getting the coaches and/or bench personal for this, but I will have spectators like that woman removed. I'll track the bench personnel and let GM deal with the crowd. If they can't handle that, then that'll be part of my report to the association and the state (and likely in the new thread I start on here). We'll have enough Technical fouls with the coaches coming on here.

I'm still likely to have considered the coaches to have participated in the fight by verbally antagonizing the opponents, and there will be two free throws for each one; obviously canceling out as many as possible to the point where we only have one team shooting technical foul shots.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The second portion is closest to how I would administer this. Basic principle is cancel as many FTs as possible, except one can't offset those due to a personal foul with those due to technical.

Lastly, the woman in green who immediately runs out onto the court is costing her side a team technical foul and getting ejected from the gym. I still strongly believe that spectators have no business coming onto the court during a game.
If we can pinpoint any others who aren't game admin or trainers, the same applies to them.

You can under 2-8-1. I don't know that I ever would though.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The woman in green who immediately runs out onto the court is costing her side a team technical foul.

When you stop her and ask her which team she is supporting, how do you know that she won't lie to you?

[lpneck]

I have 5 ejections based on the video:

1.) Flagrant technical foul on W43- Fight Instigation
2.) Flagrant technical foul on G2- Fighting
3/4.) Flagrant technical foul on both head coaches- Leaving the bench during a fight for reasons other than preventing the situation from escalating.
5.) Flagrant technical foul on W asst. coach- Leaving the bench during a fight. (He initially goes on to the floor to tend to the injured player, and I might have given him the benefit of the doubt to allow him on the floor because of that, but then he starts jawing at the official and finally confronts the green head coach, including engaging him by putting both hands on him.

W43's sub will shoot any bonus free throws for the common foul, followed by 2 FT's for green, followed by a division line throw-in for green.