A bit of a mess at an Indiana HS game

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Adam

In a fight situation, the HC gets to come out to tend to his players and help prevent/stop the fight. If he does anything else, particularly engaging the opponents in an adversarial manner, he gets a flagrant T.
All of his assistants that came on the court get tossed as well.

Initial foul on green: two shots (assuming bonus).
Double flagrant on the initial two participants. (no shots)
Four flagrant technical fouls on white for what seems to be the entire coaching staff coming onto the court (they all, at some point, antagonized the situation), so the HC doesn't get a break. Not that it would really matter, other than the difference between 6 and 8 FTs: but the HC will be ejected anyway due to the three indirect Ts he gets for his assistant coaches coming onto the court. I've got 8 free throws for green.
One FTF on the green coach due to his engagement with the white coaching staff. Sadly, I can't tell how many of these other people are coaches for green since they. Any of them who are coaches also get Ts. So, at the very least, the HC is done, and green gets two fewer FTs, down to 6.

The officials really should have done everything they could to clear the court and keep a neutral zone between the benches. White's player was down in her own FC, so she could have been tended to without any coaches talking to each other.

So: Two shots for white.
Eight shots for green.
Ball to green at half court (if there are any coaches left for white and/or green).

I'd also be tempted to call a FTF on W35 for her half-assed shove of G2 while G11 was doing the right thing and pushing her away, but I'd probably not do it.

[Sharpshooternes]

One thing the officials did right was keep track of the ball.

[RookieDude]

I can't imagine NOT whacking the white player, for a shove to the chest of the green player.

In a game I am officiating...if a player contacts another player in the way this player initially did...It's Tea Time...blowing whistle hard...looking confident in my decision. (Hopefully)

For you officials that let H.S. players shove each other (even if it's just a simple "get out of my way") IMO you might want to re-think these actions.

Sidenote: Most of us would probably whack the player if she/he just taunted the other player...why not then the T for contact? C'mon man.

[Ref16]

Originally Posted by Adam

It wasn't "nothing" IMO. If it's the first sign of trouble, she's getting a quick chat about keeping her head in the game.

If it's post-chat, then it's a T.

If it starts a fight, then it's a flagrant T either way, IMO.

This seems to be closest to my view on this play. I would need to have background on the events leading up to this point in the game to say whether or not the "get off me nudge" warrants a technical foul or an ejection in said play. The girl in green is most definitely gone though-that is blatant and inexcusable.

We don't know for sure what the game was like leading up to this point, but I would venture to say that tensions and emotions were most likely high even before this happened...and I would hope that it had been addressed with the players by the officials AND the coaches. Maybe it is only in my small part of the world, but the first time a player does anything that instigates any reaction from an opponant-no matter how small-that player is getting warned and their coach is being told, "Hey, coach-player X has been warned for (insert action here), please address this with them." It is game management IMO...

That being said, there are circumstances and times that this approach may not be the best for the game...just my opinion.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

I can't imagine NOT whacking the white player, for a shove to the chest of the green player.

In a game I am officiating...if a player contacts another player in the way this player initially did...It's Tea Time...blowing whistle hard...looking confident in my decision. (Hopefully)

For you officials that let H.S. players shove each other (even if it's just a simple "get out of my way") IMO you might want to re-think these actions.

Sidenote: Most of us would probably whack the player if she/he just taunted the other player...why not then the T for contact? C'mon man.

I agree 100%. There is no way I'm letting this go no matter what preceded it. This will never get a warning from me. It will always be a T. If it isn't a T at what point are you drawing the line. How hard does the shove need to be?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I agree 100%. There is no way I'm letting this go no matter what preceded it. This will never get a warning from me. It will always be a T. If it isn't a T at what point are you drawing the line. How hard does the shove need to be?

Are you talking about the hypothetical where her actions did not cause a fight?

As I noted before, if this had been the first sign of anything, I could see a quick (and concise) chat. If we'd already had that chat, it's an easy T. I'd have no problem backing a partner who skipped the chat, though.

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by Adam

Are you talking about the hypothetical where her actions did not cause a fight?

As I noted before, if this had been the first sign of anything, I could see a quick (and concise) chat. If we'd already had that chat, it's an easy T. I'd have no problem backing a partner who skipped the chat, though.

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

Yes I am saying if this is the only action. I don't like giving warning for unsportsmanlike activities. I don't understand why we would warn or this when we would call a travel on the first offense.

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm guessing, however, that this wasn't the first sign of trouble.

The white team is the highest ranked 1A (lowest division) girls team in the state, and was undefeated. The green team is a fairly high ranked 4A (highest division) school. Coupled with the jersey retirement ceremony for Skylar Diggins, both teams had a lot to prove.

An IHSAA commissioner said "The game officials assessed the proper penalty of ejection" but I doubt if they will comment on the management of the game up to that point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The white team is the highest ranked 1A (lowest division) girls team in the state, and was undefeated. The green team is a fairly high ranked 4A (highest division) school. Coupled with the jersey retirement ceremony for Skylar Diggins, both teams had a lot to prove.

An IHSAA commissioner said "The game officials assessed the proper penalty of ejection" but I doubt if they will comment on the management of the game up to that point.

Were both players DQed?

[referee99]

UPDATE: Saturday's girls basketball brawl in the hands of the IHSAA

Originally Posted by Adam

Were both players DQed?

No, I do not think so.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Adam

Were both players DQed?

Only 1 deserved to be ejected. The elbow by the girl in white wasn't flagrant. She should get a T, and the girl in green should get tossed. IMO only.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Only 1 deserved to be ejected. The elbow by the girl in white wasn't flagrant. She should get a T, and the girl in green should get tossed. IMO only.

If the unsporting act gets T'd, and it leads to a fight, then that person should be ejected as part of the fight.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the unsporting act gets T'd, and it leads to a fight, then that person should be ejected as part of the fight.

I don't see this as a fight though, more as a sucker punch. Let me put it this way: if the initial "get off me" arm push by W43 resulted in no reaction by G2, would you give W43 a tech? I wouldn't. I would have a word with her and let my partners know she was on a short lease but nothing more. Now, I am fine giving W43 a tech for an action that resulted in a "fighting" re-action from G2, but I would not eject W43 because she is not actively participating in a fight.

1. Flagrant tech on G2 for the punch.
2. Unsporting tech on W43 for the initial arm thing.
3. Penalize the coaches as needed.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I
2. Unsporting tech on W43 for the initial arm thing.

4-19-14: An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul..........

If you want to call a technical I would say it would have to fall under 4-19-5c