Questioning Partner's Call

[reffish]

You did all this over a backcourt call? And during an AAU game? I am sure you realize the number of times a coach will question a call, knowing or not knowing a rule? I have to admit that if you did that in a game with me, I would probably shake your hand as well during the game and probably never want to work with you again. I assume after the player caught the ball and after the coach said what he said, you blew your whistle and ran toward your partner and did your questioning, is that right? If so, then yes, that is awkward, especially over a backcourt call. And then you got the thumbs up sign from the coach. Are you sure you are officiating to the game as you state and not to the coaches pleasure? Your determination to get every call right can hamstring the crew when you become over officious and start to stop play on judgmental calls such as this backcourt call. Afrosheen, this past season I did this very thing in a game and and my take away was I did not trust my partners and was swayed by the coaches reaction. Bad move! I trust my partners, regardless of their experience, 1st year to 20 year vet, trust your partners. That is my take away. I want to commend your partner for getting into the mechanics book and rule book, he did some homework before writing that email. That took guts, especially sending it to his assignor, kudos to him. Okay, that is my $0.02. Good night

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by reffish

You did all this over a backcourt call? And during an AAU game? I am sure you realize the number of times a coach will question a call, knowing or not knowing a rule? I have to admit that if you did that in a game with me, I would probably shake your hand as well during the game and probably never want to work with you again. I assume after the player caught the ball and after the coach said what he said, you blew your whistle and ran toward your partner and did your questioning, is that right? If so, then yes, that is awkward, especially over a backcourt call. And then you got the thumbs up sign from the coach. Are you sure you are officiating to the game as you state and not to the coaches pleasure? Your determination to get every call right can hamstring the crew when you become over officious and start to stop play on judgmental calls such as this backcourt call. Afrosheen, this past season I did this very thing in a game and and my take away was I did not trust my partners and was swayed by the coaches reaction. Bad move! I trust my partners, regardless of their experience, 1st year to 20 year vet, trust your partners. That is my take away. I want to commend your partner for getting into the mechanics book and rule book, he did some homework before writing that email. That took guts, especially sending it to his assignor, kudos to him. Okay, that is my $0.02. Good night

A hit and run post. Nothing more need be said about this one.

[reffish]

I actually wanted a reply, but need to go to bed is all. In fairness, I did not address your original question on dealing with the email. It may have been said already, but email the young official and remind him that you were trying to provide additional information on the play that you believed was ruled incorrectly. Since you are the assignor, leave it at that and assign him or don't. Oh, one more thing I noticed you posted that as an experienced official you may come across as condescending to newer officials; maybe work on becoming less of that and more supportive and come in on plays where you have definitive knowledge, like OOB plays or incorrect shooter or fouler, and not on plays where you start describing the play using words like "I thought.." or "I believe.." And again, trust your partners, it will go along way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

...

The rule he is referencing is:

...I'm wondering how you guys apply this rule in your games?

Back to the original question.

In my games I only go to my partners if I am 100% sure they got a call wrong and I am providing information that I 100% know they didn't have in making their call.

If I know my partner is kicking a rule, I will go up to them and tell them something to the effect of "trust me, I know I'm right on this."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I had a play where my partner called a backcourt violation on inbounds where I thought the player catching the ball inbounds did not establish team control in the front court before going into the backcourt. My partner was the trail official, so I went up to him and asked him whether the player established team control in the front court. He replied by saying don't make this awkward and stop questioning my call. After the quarter I told him I was not intending to make this personal, I just wanted to make sure we had the call right. He then said that how could I have seen it better as Lead when he was on top of it as Trail. Granted he is still a fairly new official, but he acts very defensively and took this personally.

A couple of days later, I get an email with a veiled question of "what do you think of the first paragraph on page 307 in the Rules by Topic?" I returned, "what about it?"

He then writes: "Could you compare and contrast our situation with another of your choice to help me better understand why what happened Saturday was as you put normal of partners to do?"


The rule he is referencing is:



Now I'm wondering how to address this. I try to instill the value of working as a crew to get the call right. But now I'm not sure how to approach this situation and any further ones where I'm wanting to confer with my partner on a call.

I'm wondering how you guys apply this rule in your games?

I'm coming back to your original post. You've seemingly got two questions here. First, how to address his email. I would simply tell him that the rule itself is interpreted to mean you cannot overrule a partner's call. It does not mean you cannot approach a partner to discuss a call. If he's not receptive to feedback, that's another issue.

As for your final question, that's what we've been addressing. With rookie partners, I may expand my area a bit, but only to make calls that need made, not to talk them out of calls.

You talk about the integrity of the game, but let me ask, what do you think hurts the integrity of the game more?

1. Allowing a marginal BC call to stand that may or may not be wrong.
2. Destroying your partner's credibility by approaching him on a borderline BC call that, for all you know, is a difference in judgment rather than a rule error.

I know now, I think, why the coach was going crazy. He saw you going to approach your partner to question the call.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm coming back to your original post. You've seemingly got two questions here. First, how to address his email. I would simply tell him that the rule itself is interpreted to mean you cannot overrule a partner's call. It does not mean you cannot approach a partner to discuss a call. If he's not receptive to feedback, that's another issue.

As for your final question, that's what we've been addressing. With rookie partners, I may expand my area a bit, but only to make calls that need made, not to talk them out of calls.

You talk about the integrity of the game, but let me ask, what do you think hurts the integrity of the game more?

1. Allowing a marginal BC call to stand that may or may not be wrong.
2. Destroying your partner's credibility by approaching him on a borderline BC call that, for all you know, is a difference in judgment rather than a rule error.

I know now, I think, why the coach was going crazy. He saw you going to approach your partner to question the call.

You're assuming a little too much with that last sentence. But regardless, I appreciate you're willingness to consider the entirety of my original post.

I agree with you that marginal stuff should not be questioned and that they're supposed to be stuff that should discussed during the half in closed quarters if at all, which is what I do.

But let me ask you, should the referees in Tom Izzo's game not have gone up to their partner on such a missed call? I don't consider that call to be marginal as it a complete kick of the rule.

[BayStateRef]

My bottom line to you is simple: Be very, very, very selective in when you decide to offer your partner help. Your overly long post as to the specifics of the play are irrelevant. I will accept that your partner made a mistake. The time to "fix it" is at a timeout or after the game. As the assignor,you have the ultimate ability to fix it: do not assign him any more games.

I have been on both sides of this situation. Very early in my career, I called a violation on the jumper for hitting the ball twice. My partner said and did nothing until after the game, when he told me two taps is legal; three is illegal. I never forgot every part of that: the correct rule and how well my partner handled my error. I try to do the same when I am paired with less experienced officials. I help them (if they want) only at half time and after the game. It works perfectly for us and for the teams. (And yes...I work a lot of AAU games.)

You really need to back off. You were wrong. You were wrong to go to your partner in the first place. You were wrong in both what you said and how you said it. And to be brutally honest, you were wrong to assign him the game, given your knowledge of his work habits.

As for your partner's email....take it with a grain of salt. He clearly does not have the understanding of the full scope of the rules. But he is 100 percent right in his basic point: you cannot overturn his call. And that's what you tried to do at the gym...and what you have tried to do on this forum.

You did not come here for advice or help. You wanted validation for your actions and when you didn't get it, you became annoyed. I suggest you listen a lot more to what is being posted here and type a lot less.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

My bottom line to you is simple: Be very, very, very selective in when you decide to offer your partner help. Your overly long post as to the specifics of the play are irrelevant. I will accept that your partner made a mistake. The time to "fix it" is at a timeout or after the game. As the assignor,you have the ultimate ability to fix it: do not assign him any more games.

I have been on both sides of this situation. Very early in my career, I called a violation on the jumper for hitting the ball twice. My partner said and did nothing until after the game, when he told me two taps is legal; three is illegal. I never forgot every part of that: the correct rule and how well my partner handled my error. I try to do the same when I am paired with less experienced officials. I help them (if they want) only at half time and after the game. It works perfectly for us and for the teams. (And yes...I work a lot of AAU games.)

You really need to back off. You were wrong. You were wrong to go to your partner in the first place. You were wrong in both what you said and how you said it. And to be brutally honest, you were wrong to assign him the game, given your knowledge of his work habits.

As for your partner's email....take it with a grain of salt. He clearly does not have the understanding of the full scope of the rules. But he is 100 percent right in his basic point: you cannot overturn his call. And that's what you tried to do at the gym...and what you have tried to do on this forum.

You did not come here for advice or help. You wanted validation for your actions and when you didn't get it, you became annoyed. I suggest you listen a lot more to what is being posted here and type a lot less.

Here is the best example of how not to provide advice to someone soliciting one. You disregard the many posts where I explicitly said that I was wrong in the way that I approach my partner, and with that said, I also stated that I will reconsider it. Here's a link to an example.

But that was not enough you. You needed to come into this thread and whack away with your hammer and point to every instance where you think I was wrong (which seems to include breathing) and then perform a psycho-babble of a post to make yourself feel better than you took five minutes of your day to understand why I'm objecting to people who aren't willing to understand the point of being a crew of officials. And then you have the audacity to tell me to back off after the way you tried to undress me here. It's as the cognitive dissonance shown here is to be seen as a joke. Unfortunately that isn't the case here.

I'm glad that there was a video here shown where an Div 1 NCAA ref goes up to his partner and makes him reconsider the backcourt violation. He showed how calmly he approached his partner and allowed him to make the final call.

Evidently, the people here think to do that is disrespectful. I appreciate that you told me this, but I disagree with it. And it seems that I have ruffled your feathers by saying that I disagree with you, which really isn't a surprise to me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

...Evidently, the people here think to do that is disrespectful. I appreciate that you told me this, but I disagree with it. And it seems that I have ruffled your feathers by saying that I disagree with you, which really isn't a surprise to me.

You seem to be doing a lot of "whacking away" yourself. First you tell me I don't know how AAU works. And repeatedly you've told other posters they don't know how communicate within the confines of this forum. Now to top it off, you make a completely assinine statement that all us of here think the Tom Izzo scenario was handled in a disrepectful manner. The Tom Izzo scenario and you scenario have nothing to do with each other. Plus, in the Tom Izzo play, we see for ourselves how it was handled; in your play we only have your side of the story, which gets modified every time you don't like a response.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Ok, guy, for merely the sake of how you want to go forward, when I issued an apology explicitly saying that I have misled you, I thought we would be able to turn a corner and leave the personal stuff behind us. But if you're going to come back and continue giving such condescending diatribes, what value do you really think you're actually giving that you forcibly want me to accept without question?

Seriously what is your problem dude?

My problem? That you whine so much about "personal attacks" yet have no problem making partonizing a$$ comments like this:

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

...
Unfortunately, you don't know how AAU works. Teams pay money to play in these tournaments, ....

What kind of pompous official thinks other officials don't know how AAU basketball works?

[The_Rookie]

[QUOTE=Afrosheen;

I'm glad that there was a video here shown where an Div 1 NCAA ref goes up to his partner and makes him reconsider the backcourt violation. He showed how calmly he approached his partner and allowed him to make the final call.

Evidently, the people here think to do that is disrespectful. I appreciate that you told me this, but I disagree with it. And it seems that I have ruffled your feathers by saying that I disagree with you, which really isn't a surprise to me.[/QUOTE]

Mistakes are made at all levels...and I don't think anyone here is advocating not communicating effectively..key word effectively..which means that TIME and PLACE do matter in communications.

Further, there are some really great minds with tons and tons of experience on this blog who are generous with sharing their knowledge and experience. You may not agree with it all and yes some comments include tuff love but realize that its not personal and the goal behind the comments is to be helpful.